Soteris Labs' Agentic Attestation: AI Does the Audit, the CPA Makes the Call

The new core for the next era of finance.

Cameron, welcome in. How are doing? Well, how about yourself? Welcome to Yours good life live. It's great to finally

have you on. Yeah. Always good to catch up. How how is life? I kinda gave a brief intro before we brought you on. But Yeah. I think I think I remember you telling me one time that you started daring invite out of, like, the Uniswap airdrop craze. So you're definitely you're tenured when it comes to crypto. But, yeah, maybe give the people a quick introduction, then we'll dive into what you've been doing with Seterus Labs. Yeah. For sure. So I'm a CPA.

I've been operating this space since '17, but, like, the real, like, moment is I got the Uniswap AirDrop. Back in 2020, I was like, if I have questions on how this is taxed to tax professional, 99.9% of Americans do as well. We got a business baby. So once I first practiced, Darian, doing compliance, advisory work, working with on chain professionals, contributors.

A part of that journey is I realized over the past few years of, like, compiling financials, doing on chain racks, that so much the space has raised on just, like, Google Sheets and good vibes, and they need, like, more of a confidence layer and attestation layer. So of that kind of journey, Seterus Labs was born. Alright. So what Seterus is, it's an agentic attestation firm. Think like Augmented, KPNG, big, you know, E and Y, PwC, doing all the fun financial reporting, disclosures,

confidence stuff that they would do just with with some agents. Can you tell us more? You said raised on Google Sheets and good vibes. That feels very contrary to, like, this is the future of finance, and we are we are, you know, the next wave of the Internet. And I experienced this when we were going on. Is this your No. It's Sifera's Way. See. That's the insurance platform.

I mean,

Give me a second, guys. Sorry. I'm here. No. No. No. Don't touch anything.

So, Zach, tell us tell us about your business. And if you mean well, I was just gonna tell you right now about when I was working in the payroll space, it was shocking where I was like, hey, guys. How are you doing payroll? They're like, yeah. We got a we got a Google Sheet with all of our team's wallet addresses. And, like, you know, once a month, I go through, and I I send them the money. So you're right.

It's like these companies that are raising millions of dollars that are building the future of finance, not only from their payroll are they running on their Google Sheet. So, like, unpack that problem, like, a little bit more, and I could see how it works for an early stage five person team. But Yeah. Where do where do the cracks in the armor start to develop? Yeah.

I mean, I think coming down to what I saw is, like, there were a handful of, like, layer one significant protocols I've seen that raised capital in the last cycle. And I felt like during that, like, all euphoria, like, anything can be tokenized,

anything can be DeFi, all these various permutations and deviations of what DeFi can be. And but there was no due diligence because it's just hope, and now the hope is gone. Right? The bear market changes. There's introspection. There's due diligence. There's scrutiny. And people are coming back going, well, where's my money? Right? And a lot of what I've seen now is, like, we in this area of, like, if we can go out and do a, you know, IDO or a fair launch and all these things, which is great.

Like, I think those are very novel forms of of raising capital. There's a reason why we have securities laws and financial statements and investor protections. And a lot of what trying to what I'm trying to do with Seterus is take this weird machine readable on chain language and put into something that, you know, a 65 year old DD guy would understand or some investor except but there's just so much stuff out there where it went, hope, drive, you know, lot of retraction.

The token goes out, but then at the end of the day, it's like, so what about your financial book of records? So it's pretty dismal in the current state. It's amazing. I've seen people raise $10.15, $25,000,000, and I've had attorneys come back to me saying, hey. Like, we strike down audit review provisions from our deal docs because it's just not possible to get this done. So we're just trying to bring back some trust, some verification,

some overall confidence in the space because it's certainly been scorned as of late. So you you obviously are in the weeds. Right? And and I I know I say Darian. You said Darian. So try what I That might be that might be in in in the etched in my brain. You did some business work, not just personal work. How does this work now evolve? Like, why does why isn't this just a business line at at Darien? Like, why what warrants this becoming a whole, you know, new company in Seterus Labs? Yeah.

It's one, it's a completely different risk portfolio.

It's a different type of business, different types of working procedures. So if you think about what Darien Advisors is, it's compliance. It's advisory. It's repairing the financial records, either for your investors, for the IRS, for third parties, whatever that be. Ceteris sits on a layer on top of that, which is essentially ascertaining to what you're saying. So if you go, hey. My protocol earned $25,000,000 in revenue. Fantastic. I'm gonna be DARREN. I prepare that. I do financial statements.

And they attestation based model go, great. You said you made $25,000,000. Prove it. Show me the records. Show me the control of the assets. Show me that you're actually on that multisig, all that fun stuff as well. So it's a layer on top of it. And contrary, you know, contrary to just regular accounting. Right? In the case of attestation or assurance is we take, you know, management company's words, prove it. And if we prove it and it's there,

great. If we prove it, it's not there and it's wrong, I lose my license, people get hurt. So there is a layer of risk to that as well as responsibility when we issue statements on those financials. And so you had said one of things I I'd ask you, like, what what are you excited to dive into? And then one of the things that stuck out, you had said the attestations and proof of reserves are just marketing terms.

You know, I think as as Drew and I have gone through and reviewed how many how many Stablecoins product projects and how many teams that are issuing Stablecoins, that is one of the first things we kind of drift towards to say, like, are you right? But there's also been, I think, a lot of other projects kind of popping up and saying, like, hey. How do we how do we know this is actually true? Like, how are who is verifying this?

How do we know that this you didn't just tell Claude to go, you know, make a spreadsheet, and that's your attestation? So, like, where where do those fall short, and, like, what do you actually mean by saying, like, those are just marketing Yeah. Well, I mean, a protocol can easily surface. Like, hey. I've got CAM USD. Right? And these are the, you know, the smart contract behind error, and you can verify. Like, great. That's all that's there. But what about the other side of it? What about the obligations,

the liabilities? No one's really asked those questions. And it's, you know, actually, it's pretty funny. I I banter back and forth with, Xerox and GMI for DeFi Lama. He's like, DeFi Lama's gonna do attestation work. And was like, cool. So what do you mean by attestation? Are you verifying? Are you making sure that the procedures, the steps to generate those are correct? Are you confirming that, hey.

That multisix supporting and controlling that smart contract is actually controlled by the protocol or some third party. So because it's very public and we can just go through the permissionless environment, it's all in the blockchain, like, great. The number is there. But behind that, is that number actually verifiable and true? It's the same reason when, you know, public companies come out and they say, hey. Like, I had this much in earnings.

That earnings statement on the 10 q or the 10 k comes back with an auditor verifying, testing the invoices, the overall transactions, etcetera, to make sure those financial statements are sound. You can't just say it. You can say it as long as someone goes, great. I verified it's actually true. Cameron, I don't wanna give you the Yeah. Mic

Yeah. I'm curious for you just you've seen a lot of the behind the scenes of a lot of real active volume operators, people coming to you who have who have problems or opportunities to get clarity, and you're helping them with that. I'm wondering how you've seen the role of stablecoins play the change some of these issues or opportunities from a a tax or accounting standpoint that some of your clients are are realizing in terms of, like, maybe some common common pitfalls or opportunity.

I I know I'm trying to, like, frame it the right way. Like No. I've I've been good with for learning that you see clients have as as stablecoins have become more integrated and embedded into the financial system. I remember doing my first year of, like, taxes with stablecoins, and I was like, why is it saying, like, 4,000

here is, like, the cost base? And so it was like, I had moved a thousand dollars four times or something like that. I I remember texting Cameron and being like, dude, can you explain this to me? Like, this makes no sense. So maybe that's a good example to start to, like, break down is, like, how those are actually calculated when you're move a thousand dollars worth of stablecoins and what that would do to your I can't remember if it was cost basis. I could be wrong. But Oh, yeah. I'm sure you know the example.

Yeah. I think it was, like, when you brought it to me, it's like, hey. I bought, like, $10 of USDC,

but it's like that's and I sold it for ETH or something else. And it's like, it's actually two or three transactions. So, like, although the same $10 has moved through, you've got proceeds that just kinda get grossed up because every single transaction is reportable. And the fundamental problem with stablecoins, especially the eye is the IRS, which is there's a de minimis right now with $10.98 reporting over under a certain threshold. Doesn't get reported by the exchanges.

Because it's treated as property, every single transaction is taxable. It's an event. It doesn't treat it's not treated like currency or USD. So when you think about USDC, it's, like, not one to one with the dollar. It's one dot zero zero zero zero zero one. And that little dot zero zero zero one is a fundamental difference.

And that's just from a pure tracking as lots, cost basis, what you're selling, even though it's functionally de minimis, transaction fees, all those things kinda baked into it, which changes the overall calculus. But going back to your question is, like, where do you see, like, issues with it? It's just I feel like same with DeFi before, same with everything is the overall tech and ability to use the tools go so fast, which, god willing, amazing. Like, it's great to see new permutations of how to use stablecoins.

First, your management solutions, paying contractors, employees, holding yield, all this stuff. The accounting struggles to cope with it. So, you know, I've worked with other platforms, you know, like Altitude, a few other people that do, like, their own stablecoin solution. Fantastic. Right? We can track. We can pay. But the accounting struggles. I gotta use a subledger. I gotta export it out. Like, it doesn't quite click like, go into QuickBooks.

So that although the infrastructure is there to facilitate the transactions, the data, the reporting layer kinda lags behind. So and it's really it's a disservice, which is why internally, I've done some works to do stablecoin accounting because I don't wanted to spend $500, a thousand bucks a month on some accounting software just for dollars, functionally. So that's one hindrance to adoption is just the accounting, but compliance is gonna compliance. Yeah. We actually use Altitude for our business.

And the way that I pay myself for the like, paying myself out, I will transfer

Sablecoins from our Altitude business account to my Coinbase personal account, and then I will off ramp or withdraw Sablecoins into my personal bank. And then I actually recently saw a notification that was like, you sold x amount of Sablecoins. It's like, that doesn't sound right. Like but it sounds like And it gives you that mini heart attack. You're like, wait. Did I? I am I missing something here? Like, how do I report this? I didn't make any money on this. Do I have capital gains to think about?

Like, it's just a weird sounds like we're living in this kind of weird regulatory.

So how are you helping platforms like Altitude or individuals like Drew Rogers as they're thinking about using stablecoins as a core means to transact or run their companies? Yeah. I mean, for me, it's just an it's like supporting with their financial reporting. So so going through and going, great. If I'm a startup and a 100% of my FinSuite or my operations are on this tool, what's helped them do their accounting on the tool?

And it's the same reason why Mercury's come out because, obviously, every startup, well, 90% of them seems like they're using Mercury these days. Cool. We'll get our gusto plugged into it. We'll do our own bookkeeping product, and that way, you don't have to use QuickBooks and Xero. And it's one of these things of, like, if your financial suite is very much condensed or with one kind of ecosystem or silo, you don't really need to leave.

However, like, back in the day, I work with people that were use their multisig, and they have rain cards. And just for that simple situation for a five, ten person start up, we'd have to go leverage in $500 a month for a subledger, $100 a month for QuickBooks, time and effort to categorize it, and it's just a pain in the rear.

So the more that these kind of treasury, accounting, banking, stablecoin type companies can facilitate more of that overall reporting, it just makes the overall founder operator's life that much easier so they don't have to use three, five million different tools just to do their accounting. When it comes to Oh, go ahead, Drew. We had we had a lag. When you think about serving, like, really your focus

I feel like, Cameron, you could be working with so many different kinds of individuals, organizations. It looks like you also have strategic partnerships as well at the business to make this really easy. How do you think about where the opportunity for the business really sits most? Like, when you think about who you the difference between partnerships and clients and also the opportunity that's ahead for them, for the firm specifically, where do you see

where do you personally see opportunity for for the firm? Like, who are you trying to connect with the most right now as you grow? Yeah. I mean, for us, it's it's working with channel partners and those who also work with clients. I I joke with my go to market guy. It's like, we're not gonna go out and market to start ups. Like, no one's gonna come in demanding an attestation report, a POR, an audit. Who's gonna demand it is the person giving them money or wants to make sure their money is there.

So it's working with those folks, so venture funds, other providers. We built a data agnostic layer that agents can run on. So if we're pulling out from your MCP and CryptoWirth or we're going into Awaken or Xome, don't really care what the data is. We could speak to it. So as we go out, I mean, the whole point of this is good work in this is it's it's been a buried entry. Right?

Typically, in the case of Assurance or Attestation, the ones that are qualified are big fours, your KPMGs, your E and Ys, your Deloitte, which charge high dollar. They throw a bunch of hours at it, and they feel comfortable with your business. The alternative is there's folks out there, regional firms, nationals that don't have the expertise, but are willing to take a gamble on the overall reporting to make sure that, hey. You want your opinion. You want your PR done. You want your attestation there.

What Zetero aims to do is democratize not to a degree, jokingly, like bread for the people. But if we can drive down the cost of getting a POR, an attestation, an audit, a financial review, that just enables more projects, more folks out there to get the verification, the assurance, that comfort layer that will help them go out and get more money, fulfill their dreams, their visions of what they're trying to do.

And it's something where without that, you know, someone coming from a traditional venture fund is not gonna grant that capital allocation. They're not gonna invest. So I like to say is, like, getting a review, a comp, even an audit just, like, puts a tie on your business casual. It just makes you look more professional. You've gone through the overall steps. You've proven through rigor and testing and analytics that, hey. My financials,

going back to square one, aren't just coming out of a g sheet. I didn't Vibe Code or Vibe Accounting them with Claude. Like, they actually have merit to them, and they can be a useful tool. Alright. Now bring us in. Andrew, if you might you might wanna bring that that back up because I think this was this was a big thing that it's it is. It's you know, there's all this FUD around where does AI fit in to these inherently trust related industries. How much can AI replace your CPA?

On the financial adviser side, we've seen, you know, Coinbase go out and say, we're gonna get our AI registered as a financial adviser. I'm gonna guess you're on the side that's like, hey. We don't want that. We want to empower CPAs. So please don't let me put words in your mouth. But from what I know about you and our conversations, I felt like that was accurate. So where does AI fit into this conversation? We've I even asked you directly too, like, how should we think about Entendre?

What is what is the difference? What are the similarities here? And, yeah, break give give us that breakdown of of how you think about augmenting,

you know, CPAs and and retooling the CPA. Yeah. I mean, I I see it. I mean, it's we've seen different variations of this in the past of, like, all the big four firms and even just, like, smaller firms, they outsource. Right? So, like, whether it was to an intern or to overseas, it was a cost reduction model. Now most of the major firms and firms are outsourcing their data entry, their reconciliation, which is just cost savings doesn't pass over to client.

What we're doing with the tariffs is fundamentally changing how you operate. So I like to think that I have, you know, and the CPAs we work with, a bunch of AI tax you know, sorry, insurance seniors, insurance staff associates that don't stop. They don't show up hungover in the office. They keep going. We can go to a deeper degree of depth on our procedures analytics, and it helps me surface or what I need to actually make judgment on. So it abstracts away all, like, for lack of a better term, the BS work.

I don't wanna go through and verify that, hey, this ties out or this fits. These are deterministic procedures. Where my time is as a professional, my time in the industry should be focused on making the tough calls, where AI shouldn't be making that, signing off, where you can't just infer based upon what the predictive LLMs are trying to do. It's you actually have to make a call. And specifically in the assurance or an attestation work is if I make the wrong call as a CPA, I get sued. I lose my license.

My there's no bread on the table for my family. So there is that heavy, heavy sort of the Anikles above me where I have to make the right decision. When you abstract that away and use AI for judgment entirely or, you know, you don't have that in the case people just saying I have attestation or POR. It like I said, it's just it's just marketing. So you need to have that risk where if I don't get it right, I pay.

And that because you don't get it right, that's the reason why you're gonna make sure your decisions are correct within materiality. But, yeah, to a degree, it it's a that's a risk of of loss of license that infers how you view the work, how you interpret the work, and how you make the tough decisions that a predictive LLMs just can't do.

I'll just say that here, AI prepares humans pollute. Sort of, like, a summary of of that take a little bit. Just I was reading through this as you were speaking. These are huge, like, macro shifts in terms of this kind of tailwind that we're talking about. Like, s a b 01/21, for instance, was like when I was at Coinbase, that felt like just a massive pent up demand for so many clients who wanted to get in the game.

Like, speak a little bit to how these being rescinded, these types of acts, the Genius Act coming in has,

you know, put more of a spotlight on this specific topic of conversation. Yeah. I mean, I think it just further cements why I'm in this space in the first place. It's like, I got into crypto because, hey. It's a blockchain. It's a public ledger. It makes my job easier. I can firm, pull, query, and make I don't have to, like, chase fake statements, CSVs. And I think as that world goes forward to that route, it's the same thing with stablecoins, with Genius, with, you know, with large trad, fine moving on chain.

It's just functionally easier to enable commerce. And as you enable commerce and have this more expansion of commerce, there's just more accounting. Like, the same thing. Like, people lament to PicoBee and all this stuff post, you know, Enron and WorldCom. Yeah. It sucks, but, like, there's more work, and there's more rigor and more procedures and more standards and more requirements.

And as the overall space matures, as we learn to, like, basically what to call it, how we classify it, how we account for it, where does it go on the balance sheet, how do we actually treat these weird transactions, there's just gotta be someone on top of that going, okay. Did the actual general ledger do it correct? Or is it actually and the same thing goes back to when I was a a staff auditor back in 2012 is I was already in the timing of payables and receivables. Did they land before year end?

Did they actually get paid out? Were the services rendered? And you could theoretically automate that, but you actually have to go through and read and confirm and understand and make sure it's there. And that's that make sure assurance is why we'll still need it as this economy out and expands. But a lot of where I see, you know, the true expansion is just based upon Agenic Finance, ease of do business, the ability to transact to high volumes.

The same reason retail blows up with a couple million dollars a trade or a couple million transactions in hyper liquid, we'll see the same abstraction just with businesses and other way operating through various microtransaction payments. So, unfortunately, someone's gotta actually tally it, do reports, summarize it, and here I am, the Hubble account.

Are you surprised the lack of alternatives or, like, the lack of other people in this, or are you like, does that kind of shock you, or are there actually more that more that that meets the eye here in terms of people trying to solve this problem like you are? I think I can definitely say on the tax, certainly on the insurance side of things, in the account, it's it's notoriously underserved. There's so many CPAs out there that are crypto CPAs that, by their actions, hurt their clients in the tax side of things.

They don't know. They're trying. The same thing applies to national firms trying to do audit work for crypto. They don't understand what an RPC is, what a smart contract is. And even I was joking, one of the auditors of ADAT, I have a friend of the inside from KPMG, they asked, what's gas? KPMG is asking what gas is auditing a debt. So there's a lack of understanding that will have real world implications. And, unfortunately, most firms learn on your dime.

They'll charge high fees to throw some staff order in there to figure that out. So I don't see any of the folks that are personally operating as competitors. I've had some folks actually reach out to me that we know we're in the same lane going, hey. How can I help? How can I augment this? Because if they can do this work more, a rising tide lifts all boats. And at the end of day, we just want our clients to get the best work possible. Another example too is I saw another stablecoin as a service issuer.

Their POR was done by a small Midwestern firm that didn't have digital asset partner. And they're signing off saying, yes. This is good. And it's that type of risk, that type of not lack of understanding that can actually have real world implications on the public, on investors should they make those wrong judgment calls out of my understanding. So I'm very excited. I want more people to come in and service, More people using crypto, more people transacting,

uplift MyBags, uplift YourBags. It's overall better for the space. So the more, the merrier. But right now, it's a torrential underserved in all accounts. Yeah. Do you think I'm just thinking through this of you know, I think Kareem had this this stat where he was just talking about this this exodus that's gonna happen with CPAs retiring, the amount of CPAs that are that are coming and people going to a school school for accounting. How do you think we solve that problem? Like, is it CPAs like yourself?

Like, you gotta go to college campuses and, like, do some of the or, like, high schools and and talk about how this is actually this profession isn't going away because of AI. It's just changing. I feel like this is one of those those sectors when people think about, like, what what could a successful career look like that gets overlooked, but is also gonna be one that seems like there's not gonna be lot of competition. Maybe asked a little bit differently.

She said, what would you I was golfing with a buddy of mine who just graduated with his master's of accounting with playing golf with him. And he is kinda just, like, you know, entering his career in the very like, very open ended with, like, what he wants to do with it. What would your advice be to, you know, smart, intelligent, but kind of, like, unaware of the future of how AI plays into this a little bit?

Like, what would your advice be to those who are, yeah, that recently graduated or, like, entering college thinking about this career path? Like, how how what what advice would you give to to that person? Yeah. I mean, as a former Luddite or neo Luddite studio called me, it's like, was slow to AI adoption a couple years back. I mean, I used, like, a note transcriber.

I would search on it, some composition. But my biggest my biggest, I guess, advice would be just to go through and learn how to work differently. So much of what firms are teaching, how they're operating are based upon old seizures. I think about my first days at RSM back in 2012 as I was physically printing out the prior audit report, put together them in a binder, and then present that to partner to go, yep, this is ready to go for the engagement, the actual work papers.

And so much of that is, I mean, take it just ten, fifteen years on, is probably still similar, just in more digital fashion. So how you're working or how you're approaching work is changing. So it's one of those things of I had my own kind of personal mini, like, crisis moment a year back. I was like, well, shit. Like, AI's gonna take my job. Like, this is thought work, and I it's getting better at it. And but the thing is is how I appreciate it is, like, it does the work I don't want to do.

I don't want to do reconciliations. I want to have a skill and train that to actually do the reconciliation work for me. So the better ways to augment, live, and and work with that tooling is the best. And just the overall kind of, like, where to, you know, where to actually learn is just dive into judgment work, dive into complex scenarios, really, really, you know, get those lore get those, you know, those those stripes.

And it's something where, you know, I don't envy someone graduating college right now in accounting. Right now, you know, even for our firm, for Darien and for Cerises, I probably won't hire a junior staff senior auditor or an accountant. There's just no need. We found ways to work differently, to abstract away that. The time I spent early in my career just doing data entry, rolling for work papers, doing that testing, Firms are slowly, slowly pulling that ladder.

So where you can kind of find ways to get into it, find the right space where you can learn, develop, sharpen those, you know, those knives, that's the most important part, in addition to just figuring how to work with AI the best way possible, augmenting yourself and learning how to operate. It's tough. It is a tough place to be in account. Because I I said it's like, I feel good. You know, I'm 36. I spent my time in industry. I've got practicum.

I can leverage and know how to use the tools to get the answer I need, but someone come out of college doesn't have the right cognition or the right judgment to actually understand what they're looking at. So it's and that's just by time in the trenches, so finding more ways to get in the trenches. Yeah. One one maybe tactical strategy could be be just like finding a platform. I know you have a listed list of really great partners that you have either integrated with or work really close with, like Integral.

And I feel like going after

teams like that or like we mentioned, Entendre, getting close to those types of demands, like, that's really, in some ways, where the demand is coming from. Like, knowing those platforms, integrating with them deeply, knowing those teams, taking them out to dinner, like, getting getting close with the tech side or the softwares Yeah. The software layer could be good too. So, yeah, that's good stuff, man. Good stuff. We also might be in the market for for some of this stuff too as we grow.

So Oh, seven on your prospect list.

Because this was an interesting thing that Kareem dug into. Any LLNs right now that are leading the pack in your eyes for this type of work? I mean, I'm using,

like, a multi judgement model. So, like, a mix of Claude, Gemini, and OpenAI, some perplexity here and there, and just battle testing to figure out what's best. I found from my own journey, you know, here we go ops. I'm just kidding. But, like, when it comes to, like, design work and narrative work and planning work, like, Claude is fantastic. As far as, like, here's the brief, here's the understanding.

And, of course, my my my partner in this, Tommy from, Seterus is, like, Claude sometimes who does back end, like, engineering, especially when it comes to deterministic, the testing, the procedures really sucks when we're trying to code and build it out. Open ed and chat, chippy team, Codex has been phenomenal. The back end work, interesting. Through battle says adversarial stuff.

And especially because I am doing so much adversarial testing, like, I gotta make sure that it actually comes to the same conclusion 99.9% of the time. Because if it makes the wrong call, chat license. But, yeah, using a mix of the, you know, of the three biggons, but just depends. It's like, there's no right answer. Same thing as when you go out Yep. And you're testing someone's POR. It's there's you can query five different sources. They're gonna tell you the same amount of coins in circulation.

Depends on the state of the chain, what node, what time, what's there. So just trying to feel comfortable

with that kind of spectrum of answers. Yeah. Awesome. I actually just sent you on what I was referencing from Kareem with this benchmark. So Yep. You got that on your Telegram. But, Cameron, thanks. Was always good to catch up. Thanks for coming on Sable. That's live. And we'll have to you maybe you'll be our resident CPA expert that will cut back bring back on to to give commentary on the stuff that means We'll we'll create a sponsorship for for free accounting service. We'll we'll do the BART.

Maybe we'll do the BART or something like It's just barter. Good luck, give and take. Thanks for your time, Cameron. Good to meet you. Thanks, guys. Yep. Cheers. Bye.