# Borderless says its network cuts stablecoin ramp integration from six to nine months to two weeks Stabledash Live, a Stabledash show. Aug 29, 2026. Kevin Lehtiniitty. https://live.stabledash.com/shows/the-live-show/episodes/mastercards-real-product-is-trust-stablecoin-compliance-a78pvJnV5mo Borderless CEO Kevin Lehtiniitty argues that trust, not payment rails, is what holds back cross-border stablecoin payments, and that a new Mastercard pilot is built to fix it. Borderless, a stablecoin orchestration network, says customers can connect to its network of on and off ramp providers in about two weeks instead of six or nine months. This week the company launched a pilot with Mastercard that applies Mastercard Crypto Credential to cross-border stablecoin payments in live transactions, beginning with Infinia, Walapay and Koywe. ## Trust, not rails "What broke down was never the rails, it was trust," says Kevin Lehtiniitty, CEO and co-founder of Borderless. In the pilot, Mastercard audits providers against its own franchise rules so other providers can rely on that attestation instead of starting over. Lehtiniitty argues that Mastercard's core product is not a card. "Mastercard's core product is called franchise rules," he says. He adds that the pilot was fourteen months in the making, and that without the StartPath program it would have taken five times longer just to find the right person to talk to inside Mastercard. ## Fewer, better providers Kevin Lehtiniitty says the network currently sits at 16 providers, is about to be 25, and will then grow to 40, 50 and 80. He says the vast majority of ramp providers have reliability issues, misrepresented capabilities and wrong API docs, so Borderless decided it wins by having the right providers rather than the most. ## Open networks and connectivity Lehtiniitty rejects closed-loop ecosystems built around a single issuer such as Circle or Tether, warning they would rebuild walled gardens "with blockchain lipstick." He says the rivals Borderless meets most often in RFPs are CPN and Circle's products, and that the company now sees itself as a connectivity business serving customers who orchestrate. ## Publishing the data Borderless Benchmarks reports quarterly on costs such as the price of delivering a $10,000 payment across markets. Lehtiniitty says Q2 drew on 2,960,000 observations, including intents and failed attempts, and that Borderless discloses its full methodology and data for free to build transparency. Kevin Lehtiniitty frames all of this as a 10 to 20 year bet. He says stablecoins today are a drop in the bucket, and he hopes they become the default, with traditional payments becoming the drop in the stablecoin bucket. ## Key takeaways 1. Borderless says payments companies can integrate with its network of on and off ramp providers in about two weeks instead of six or nine months. 2. A pilot with Mastercard has Mastercard audit providers against its franchise rules so others can rely on that attestation, starting with Infinia, Walapay and Koywe. 3. Kevin Lehtiniitty says the network sits at 16 providers and is about to reach 25, with quality chosen over provider count. ## Chapters - 0:00 Borderless built prebuilt integrations to global on and off ramps - 2:40 Mastercard franchise rules replace one-by-one compliance reliance agreements - 6:18 A fourteen month bet, navigated through Mastercard StartPath - 10:36 Long-horizon bets because stablecoins are still a drop in the bucket - 12:28 Choosing the right providers matters more than having the most - 16:34 Open networks win, and Borderless is a connectivity business - 19:25 Benchmark data shows spreads in divergent markets like Malawi - 23:11 Quarterly benchmarks built on millions of network observations - 27:00 Public methodology and free data to grow the market ## Transcript **Drew Rogers** (0:00) We got Kevin Litiniti joining the show. And because we love him so much, we can say that last name with confidence and boldness. Litiniti. I mean, I... There's no doubt there's no doubt on how you say that name. Beautiful last name. Kevin, how are doing, man? I wish I was there yesterday. It sounded great, like, a fun time. **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (0:20) We missed you. You know? I felt like there was a large hole in my heart for the entire event. It was you, Drew. **Drew Rogers** (0:30) Wow. **Zach Fowler** (0:31) That's actually the big red orb that's on the the side of the Mastercard logo. It's just the whole That's Kevin Hart. The whole. **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (0:40) That's not what Kevin Tartar. Sized hole right there. **Drew Rogers** (0:44) Well, tell us about yesterday. What was what was going on? It's cool that you you were able to host this event. I wish I was there. It looks it looked fun. Zach was there. He said it was great. **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (0:53) Zach was there. And Zach brought some some nice ray of sunshine through a very rainy evening at the at the Mastercard office. But, you know, one of the one of the things that we've been thinking about a long time is how you scale trust and how you scale governance. Right? So, like, thinking about what we do incredibly well, and I would argue probably better than anybody else in the world, is we started borderless looking to defragment the rails around the world. Right? You've got a stablecoin, which is very much global asset, can be moved anywhere in the world, and then you've got regulatory licenses, fiat currencies, local banking rails, very geographically fragmented. And we looked at that, and we said, jeez. There's an opportunity to build something at the intersection of these two things that makes on chain money globally interoperable with off chain money. What is that gonna look like? And that was the founding thesis for Portalis. And what we spent a ton of our time doing is integrating with all of the leading on and off ramp providers in all of these different jurisdictions. Right? So in Latin America, think your Infinias, COIways, Bitsos, Avenias, Trace Finance, Cobres, etcetera. In Africa, your crisscrosses, yellow cards. Right? I'm not gonna sit here and and chill a bunch of people. But you you get the point. Right? And we built all of these integrations, and now we maintain all those integrations. So for payments companies and others who want to transact at scale, they're getting rails and integrations that have been built and battle tested over two and a half years, and they're getting all the ongoing maintenance of those integrations and that connectivity with the breaking changes, regulatory changes, things of that nature. And they can just transact with the network of providers, and they can do that entire integration in, like, two weeks' to end instead of six or nine months and all these engineers. But to be very honest with you, where this started to break down was around trust. Mhmm. Because you're doing a stablecoin sandwich or you're doing sort of a more global flow, and you've got a sender. Right? And that sender, KYC, is with the on ramp provider. And then that on ramp provider goes and settles that flow to an off ramp provider. And what you expect from the correspondent banking system is for that transaction to just send. But what actually happens is the off ramp provider goes, wait a minute. I have no idea who the sender is. Right? And, yeah, the on ramp KYC them, but I have no idea who that on ramp is. I have no idea what that KYC program looks like. And, ultimately, what you end up having to do is you end up building these reliance agreements. Right? So you have a provider on the network that then goes and builds a reliance agreement with another provider on the network, and they have to scale that across everybody. So if you're transacting with eight different providers, that's eight different reliance agreements. And most importantly, that means it's eight different audits of your compliance program. Right? Because how is anybody gonna rely on your compliance program without auditing your compliance program? And what we've said is this makes no sense. Right? The network currently sits at 16. It's about to be 25. Maybe I shouldn't say that out loud, but I have. So sorry to the board. What's that? And then it's gonna be 40, and then it's gonna be 50, and then it's gonna be 80. Right? Imagine 80 different reliance agreements. Like, this will never ever ever fail. So what was the reason we walked with Mastercard team is what are they great at? They're amazing at trust and at governance. Right? What is Mastercard's product? I would argue with you it's not a card. Mastercard's core product is called franchise rules. That's what they've actually done. And they've looked at the stablecoin world and said, wait a minute. We have the same silos of KYC and KYB that exist in the banking system have just been rebuilt around these on and off ramp providers and PSPs. And they chose borderless as the network of providers to use for its pilot, where we say, okay. Instead of doing eight different compliance audits for eight different providers, let's all agree on the Mastercard franchise rules, because quite frankly, they're one of the few companies in the world that has actually standardized compliance and trust across a global scale. And now I can go, and I can have my compliance program audited by Mastercard themselves. And when Mastercard gives me that green thumbs up, now every other provider that's also opted into Mastercard standards now automatically give me reliance without needing to go with these one by one agreements. And now this scales reliance through one operator, I. E. Mastercard, into a limitless amount of providers. And now you're not doing 18 different compliance audits. You're doing one. And quite frankly, you're doing one from Mastercard, and I don't want to insult anybody's compliance processes. But when I think about an on and off ramp, even if I built one myself, right, I am not going to have the global compliance expertise of Mastercard's compliance team. Right? I have no idea how to audit a compliance program in Turkey. I have no idea how to audit a compliance program in The Philippines. Like, I'm fairly familiar with The US BSA rules. How does that apply to Brazil? How does that apply to Argentina? How does that apply to Nigeria? How does that apply to Philippines? How does that apply to... I don't know. You know who audits compliance programs and runs franchise rules in almost every single non sanctioned country on the planet earth? It's called I know. I guess Yes. You got it. You just got it. Oh. Yeah. It has tipped my tongue. I was afraid you were gonna say Jesus. I had to jump in. **Drew Rogers** (6:10) Well, they... Yeah. It makes sense. It it makes sense. Yeah. No. We love we love Mastercard here in St. Louis. They actually have a huge presence in St. Louis. We were just hanging out with two Mastercard friends who might be looking at the StartPath program. It's cool. They've, like Oh, highly recommend it. Been in Mastercard and then are thinking about joining the StartPath program. Was Borderless involved with StartPath? Maybe speak a little bit about that that program and just the relationship to Mastercard, like how you have been able to form form that relationship. And obviously, it makes sense in terms of the the compliance and trust distribution they have. But personally, it's been really cool to see you as a founder building this and like the architecting almost of like this type of partnership. Like, what... This isn't something that you didn't slide into the DMs and, like, make this work. Like, you... It was a very thoughtful approach. Speak a little bit about StartPath. Called you about last Tuesday. You... How you... It's not easy to get, like, a partnership with Mastercard. **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (7:12) No. I think maybe to give a a sense of time scale. Right? The the pilot program that we announced yesterday at the event was fourteen months in the making. That's the amount of time, effort, energy, investment, which honestly, when you're a founder of an early stage company, that's putting a ton of opportunity cost. Right? It's a ton of eggs in one basket of just the amount of things that you're not doing because you're saying this is something we believe in. Right? And we believe there needs to be a layer of trust that sits on top of a network of on and off ramps and that sits on top of the connectivity product like ours, and we certainly know we're not the ones to build it. Right? Who's gonna go with our compliance standards? Who are we to dictate compliance standards? So we knew there was basically two companies on Earth who we could do this with, and we put a ton of eggs in in the basket of making that happen. But we went through the STAR Path program ourselves. Right? So STAR Path is is Mastercard's accelerator for those who don't know. And the three launch pilot on and off ramps, so Infinia, Coiway, and Wallapay are also all StartPath companies. So not only have we gone through StartPath, but all of the audit off ramp providers that are the initial pilot companies have all also gone through StarPath. And what I didn't realize until the event is we had, you know, a few different bits of content there, and we had a panel on enterprise cross border payments, which was Mastercard move and also a guy from Airwall x and a few other folks. Airwall x was a Mastercard Starpath company. So, you know, certainly, there have to be stablecoin early stage, but, you know, how does that translate into the future? It's interesting to look back at previous batches and realize what we now think of as the cross border payments giants like the Airwall Xs were at one point an early stage company that were part of Mastercard Starpath. So for anybody that is, you know, thinking about it, I think it was phenomenally valuable for us in terms of being able to create a relationship and, most importantly, navigate a relationship with what is a behemoth of the size of Mastercard. Right? You can imagine the amount of internal departments and people and stakeholders and things like that that are involved in bringing a pilot like this to market. And quite frankly, I think without Starpath, it would have taken us five times longer to just even figure out who's the person to talk to on this team and who's the person to talk to on this team. And it feels like through StartPath, you've got the, like, cloaked figure with the lantern who's like, follow me. I will guide you. And then you're able to kind of walk into the various teams, and, like, you certainly still have to convince everybody that this is a great idea. Right? Like, that that work effort is on you. Just because you're a star path company doesn't mean that Mastercard's all of a sudden gonna throw a bunch of resources at something. But what they can do is they can shepherd you to, hey. Here's the person you need to talk to. Right? And then you get them on board. And it's like, great. Now I can walk you over here, and here's the next person you gotta talk to. And then you spend a few months getting them to buy into the vision and getting them excited and onboard, and then you kinda have this guide through the organization. So you're not sitting there doing cold LinkedIn DMs going, please have coffee with Kevin. And they're just like, no. **Drew Rogers** (10:25) Yeah. Well, what do No. No. I've I've I've cut you off twice already. I'll I'll forgive you. I'll get there. Thank you. I'm on I'm on away from strike three. **Zach Fowler** (10:36) I was thinking about what you were saying, Kevin. Like, as a founder, you had this... This was a fourteen month bet. Right? And you're thinking about limited resources. Where do I put my chips? When when you've been operating in that way... And I love what you said at first, scaling trust. Right? Business moves at the speed of trust. Sometimes trust takes a little while to build, though. You gotta go through the incubator and talk for fourteen months and all this. How have you thought about kind of the diversity of your bets or sometimes lack of diversity of your bets in terms of long term, short term, where we're playing? Like, how are you making those decisions? **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (11:14) I think a lot of it is driven by where we believe the market to be. So stablecoins today, and especially stablecoin payments, are, like, very much a frothy, topical market. Right? As we know, it's a lot of announcements, a lot of people getting into the space, things like that. But if you look at the actual payments volumes that are running, what you very, very quickly realize is that stablecoins today are a drop in the bucket. So when we think about the time horizon more or less as a company, we don't think about the time horizon over the next two or three years. We think about the time horizon over the next ten or twenty years. And we make predominantly because of this. And, you know, maybe history will prove me to be completely wrong. And in three years, I'll be like, well, guys, we screwed it all up. But we think about this in terms of almost exclusively long term time horizon bets. Yep. Yep. That's, you know, how we go to market. That's how we build our products. That's how we build our partnerships is to really focus on to exist over the next several decades to make the drop in the bucket become the default and to have traditional payments become the drop in the stablecoin bucket versus stablecoins the drop in the traditional payments bucket. And things like trust is an incredibly high conviction bet. Things like quality of infrastructure is an incredibly high commitment bet that's... You know, Drew was a big part of the Borderless story early on. And I think you may remember kind of that pivot that we made where we thought we were gonna win by having the most on and off ramp providers as part of the Borderless platform. And then what we realized, quite frankly, is there is tremendous reliability and other issues with the vast majority of on and off ramp providers. And I don't think that's a knock on those providers. I think it's just a reality of stablecoins is not a mature market yet. Right? And a lot of these companies are early stage. Some are series a. Very, very few are series b. And that means that a lot of the infrastructure and technology that they have is just not matured yet. So there's a lot of downtime. There's a lot of things in API docs that don't actually work. You know what I talk about? Two and a half years of battle testing integrations. This is why you can't just point Claude at some API docs and and go nuts. Right? I wish that we could because our team would be so much happier. But you have a bunch of capabilities that are misrepresented. You have a bunch of API docs that are wrong. You then have a sandbox environment that doesn't to a production environment. Right? You have, like, all these different things that make it challenging to build. And we've ended up having to solve for a lot of these things. And one of the bets that we changed was we said, okay. We don't win by having the most providers be part of the borderless platform. We win by having the right providers be part of the borderless platform. And that's part of why we're looking at, you know, 16 turning into 25, not a 100 turning into 300. Because to be completely honest with you, there's certainly not even a 100 on and off rent providers that I would trust tuition level flows to. Right? If it's a pre seed neobank that's moving a 100 k a month, absolutely, there's a wonderful world of choice for them. But if we're talking about main... What... What's the main challenge? Is it just like a lack of volume when you say, like, early stage, infancy? Like, what what sort of uphill battle do you face with **Drew Rogers** (14:14) the long list of these folks that that maybe you can avoid by getting the right group? Like, what's the difference mainly? **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (14:22) Quite frankly, a lot of them don't work. Just technically, they're not they're not great. Is it due to liquidity challenges, or what doesn't work typically? Some of it's liquidity challenges. Some of it's the banking rails that they have. Right? Because if you think about borderless, we're much less focused on the FX. That's obviously part of a payment transaction, but we're focused on actually moving money into the end user's bank account. Right? So this includes providers that support things like third party payments that have all the local fiat rails and all those sorts of things. So the banks they're connected to, those rails aren't reliable. Their liquidity is not reliable. Their APIs have lots of breaking changes that sometimes don't work. And then, you know, their API docs are just flat out wrong, so you've gotta spend six months integrating them because it's all these cycles and cycles of, we did this according to your docs. Like, oh, yeah. No. The docs are wrong. We do it this way. Like, how how are supposed to know that? Right? So you've got all these different things, and then finally, you launch the integration. You put a, you know, $100 through it. It works fine. And then all of a sudden, you put 10,000 payments through it, and can't handle that load, can't handle that volume, can't handle that frequency of transactions. Right? And when we think about, like, who are the ideal customers for borderless, you know, we are powering a lot of the infrastructure providers that are going after the Sony's, Samsung's, MoneyGram's, NuVeys, Worldpay's, Shift4's, etcetera of the world. That is the level that our infrastructure is being held to from the standards. So we need the on and off ramp providers that can actually handle enterprise flows, not just an early stage, you know, Staplepoint neobank that's got 10,000 users. **Drew Rogers** (15:56) Yeah. Yeah. Actually seeing what happens when you put volume and use stress tests will really say a lot about some architecture. And yeah, it's cool it's cool to see this conviction become more clear around not necessarily the amount of providers, but the quality of them. I think that's really unique. I'm wondering, we won't say like exactly who this **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (16:21) because it's... Quality is always better than quality. **Drew Rogers** (16:24) It For some reason, it wasn't obvious in the beginning. And now Right. But but... Yeah. But you need you need coverage, and there's like an idea of like, oh, we need everything. Let's like... And then it's kind of... It leads me into this kind of this last this last question around the the term orchestration, the the network... Idea of a network effect, the sort of Peter Thiel monopolies win frame frame of thinking. Like, do you do you do you subscribe to that mindset around this part of the stack? I remember there was a conversation you had early on with a VC who was just, like, really, really bearish on orchestration or that term and, like, what are your kind of updated thoughts around this? Was was that person completely wrong and and this is actually a massive opportunity? Or or how how is that kind of feeling **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (17:20) matured in the last year? I think when we think of Borderless as a company, I think there's there's two things that that we really believe in. One is that open networks win. Right? And we think about, like, who do we see head to head most often in RFPs and other things like that. It tends to be CPN and Circle's products. And, obviously, Circle has phenomenal distribution and is one of the world's most successful stablecoin companies, right, post IPO and all those sorts of things. But we believe that the future isn't closed loop ecosystems. It's not a Circle ecosystem or a Tether ecosystem or an OUSD ecosystem or a PYUSD ecosystem or a... You know, we believe that these things need interoperability. And otherwise, you're just gonna end up rebuilding the existing financial system and walled gardens just with blockchain lipstick. So, you know, we wanna support as many chains as we can. We wanna support as many stablecoins as we can. And, right, we wanna be agnostic to all these things. And then we've actually stopped thinking of ourselves as an orchestration business. We think of our customers as orchestrators, and we think of ourselves as ultimately a connectivity business. And that to us comes in three parts. And the first is, what are all the on and off ramps that I can now all of a sudden transact with? Who are all the counterparties? Because I have these prebuilt integrations in the network for all these people. And then how do I scale my volumes on those on those integrations? And this is a lot of internal tools, so think things like RFIs, reconciliations, reports, things of that nature. And then lastly, how do I then optimize my flows with these partners? And that's where things like our data benchmarks come in around costs, around reliability, around settlement speed, all those sorts of things where we take the data across the entire network. And we can create this, like, Bloomberg mid market like product, and then we can also show how broad in different markets are the different prices that are coming from different on and off rent providers, which is really interesting for people. **Drew Rogers** (19:25) Is there is there any right now that are interesting to to pilot or demo? I know we did this last time. It was fun. A specific trade point flows? **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (19:35) Argentina's always great because it's a divergent market. Meaning, you have the official government blue dollar rate, and then you have, like, the local market rate. And what you see in that market, the reason the spreads are so broad, is you have venues that price at the government interbank rate, and then you have venues that price at, like, the actual local market rate. If you look at something like Brazil, you'll see something that's much, much, much tighter where you'll see those bands. They've recently spread with some of the recent IOF guidance and, like, the unofficial central bank guidance, but you see much, much tighter things there. And, ultimately, what we see a ton from our customers is a lot of our customers are orchestrators in the sense that they have a handful of core markets where they say, these are our core markets. We're gonna go bare metal. We're gonna get our own licenses. We're gonna integrate directly to banks. We're gonna own the rails ourselves. And then they say, okay. Well, now I also need to support this other set of markets that are noncore to me. How do I do that with the highest possible quality? It's not by half assing a product in a market I'm not good at. It's by partnering with the best provider where, for them, that is their core market. And, obviously, if you wanna do that across five or six markets, that means you've gotta have at least five or six different provider relationships. And that's where as a product, Borderless is scaling a ton of these companies because now they can transact with the best local providers in every single region without that needing to be a new integration to build and maintain every single time. **Drew Rogers** (21:01) Yep. Yep. What would you say... So we have the real here. What would be an example of, like, maybe it was the peso, like, a a very extremely spread pair just to get the differences? Let's **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (21:16) go see what Malawi looks like. I haven't looked at that recently, but Malawi's generally Yeah. A **Drew Rogers** (21:22) Okay. **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (21:24) People in the office are staring at me like I'm crazy, so we'll see what happens. There we go. Yeah. This one this one's a little bit bigger. Nice solid 14,000 basis point price deviation market. **Drew Rogers** (21:36) So is this... Yeah. So, like, you know, moving money from fiat to stablecoin here, why would, you know, a a currency like this, just to educate folks, like, why would we see such a difference between this versus the real? **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (21:53) What you're seeing is basically risk get pressed in. Right? So ultimately, someone is buying Malawi currency, and that is an incredibly risky buy to be making. And that's why you're seeing these broader spreads. Right? Liquidity's thin. People want this premium for providing that liquidity, all those sorts of things. And if you go to the top right and you and you click explore, there's actually a whole another view to that data as well, which we launched recently that's kind of interesting. **Drew Rogers** (22:23) It's kinda hidden up here. Okay. What do we got? This is the first time I'm seeing this. **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (22:27) So this will show you all of the corridors versus from a currency. So now you get the table view around what is the deviations by corridor, by region, what is... We now have these verdicts, which is like align versus cautious versus divergence. We have, like, green, yellow, red on the data we see. And then if you also click on regime instead of overview, you'll see a a little bit more of a explanation on these parallel markets. So you're asking, like, Cameroon. And all this is is free. Right? This is just... This is data that the network generates that we give away to try to help people understand the market and make better decisions. And then you can imagine if this is what we give away, there's significantly less riskabilities that are part of the product. **Drew Rogers** (23:11) Observations. What what is... How do you define that? So those are generally **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (23:17) forms of transactions **Drew Rogers** (23:19) that are happening through the network that we're looking at and analyzing on those things. So I think So that's, I mean, that's really interesting data. Because this is this is your... It's like within the network moments, or are these specifically, like, transactions themselves that are being, like, requests? Or **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (23:40) Yep. All transactions existing partnership network. And requests also funnel into this data. And looking at both of that data also lets us look at, like, slippage data, where we can understand what is the actual ultimate fill and how does that compare to, like, what was requested to be filled and, like, are people honest with what their spreads are? Or if I tell you, look. I'm gonna drop $500 into this bank account. I actually only dropped 490, and I'm like, oh, the FX rate, you know, it moves around. Like, we we we look at all those sorts of different things. And I think in q two... We just put out a report on this a couple weeks ago. Q two, I think we looked at 2,960,000 total, you know, transactions, attempted transactions. We don't call them transactions, so it also counts like intents and failed attempts and all those things. I like the word observations. **Drew Rogers** (24:33) It's nice. Yeah. I think it makes sense. It's almost 3,000,000 deep for last quarter. **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (24:37) My point is, like, the scale of the data is in fact significant enough for us to quite confidently draw these conclusions. Not looking at, like, four transactions and being like, oh, one random one failed. It's a terrible market. Right? Like, there's enough scale now that's happening where where we can actually derive some very interesting intelligence from this. **Drew Rogers** (24:57) This would be a fun... You know, it'd be cool. So it looks like you can go in here and and enter email, get get updates on Borderless benchmarks. So if I were to go in and enter my email, what should I expect from Borderless in terms of these, like... Are you guys kinda monitoring this and saying, oh, this is interesting, or, like, there's a... Maybe something that we think is noteworthy, and then we'll update you about it? What what is the benefit of Yeah. Subscribing? **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (25:20) We do that quarterly. So maybe one quick shill is that the entire widget that we just clicked through is also fully embeddable for free. So it could live on stablecoinage.com. What we send out quarterly is if you scroll to the top and you click on blog, there'll be a borderless benchmark q two report. And we send it out in email as, like, a nice PDF. But I think if it's... Scroll benchmark insights. There we go. If you just kinda like loosely scroll through that, what you'll see is we basically price... Like, what is the price of delivering a $10,000 payment across all these different markets? So including the flat fees of the rails and all those things, not just the FX. Because we all know the FX is a component, but then you also have the local rail fees. And then we look at what is the stablecoin mid, which we compute from all the buy side, sell side data. Right? Because there's no Bloomberg mid market for stablecoins. So we compute that as part of this. And then we look at the breadth of transactions. Like, what's the best price and what's the worst price? And we call that number the routing tax. So if you only have a single provider in that region, how much potential cost are you bleeding? Because you're always transacting through one partner's cost structure versus getting exposed to multiple different prices. And then we look at things like spread, and then we look at parity between the stablecoin mid that we compute and the traditional interbank mid that's reported like Bloomberg and Reuters and things like that. And then at the very bottom, there's some table where we just list this out for a 100 different countries. Love how transparent... **Drew Rogers** (27:02) Cost by country. I love how transparent this is. Just like the the way that you... Because it would... You know, the core belief you shared, which is awesome, and I know I kind of glossed over that. It was really... Like, to hear you guys really believe in the the power of open networks, we were really inspired. We were we were looking to get Ben Milnon from Braille and even what they shipped, like, the last couple weeks with ION. Just like the power of open networks, you really start to think about it and think about surviving the crazy world of, like, infrastructure for for money, like, I would bet that the companies who are thinking the way you're thinking have more risk of of... Or or possibility of survival than those who are trying to kind of, yeah, hold the cards behind them and... The open network approach and how you're even approaching the data that we've just been going through seems to be such a, you know, rise for all the tides. And as people think about issuing their own stablecoin and being in different parts of the stack here as things go more application layer forward, like the application layers having a lot of the leverage versus the infrastructure from our opinion is what we're seeing. Things like borderless and the borderless network become, like, very, very powerful trusted open networks to lean on as you build functionality within these platforms. So it's it's cool to see this, man. And I would love to, like, think through more ways to highlight these types of benchmarks, maybe embed some of this into our program. So let's think through that better together. I feel like we could... The observations, honestly, like, that that is the coolest It's really interesting. Point. **Kevin Lehtiniitty** (28:42) Coolest data point. So Yeah. Like, obviously, for us, it's marketing. Right? But the general reason that we we do this, and at the bottom of all reports, we have detailed breakdowns of the methodology. Right? Like, even the methodology that's used to calculate all these things we make public. And the reason we do that is because we want to be credibly neutral. Right? We can't be a 100% neutral because we're the ones producing the data, and therefore, there's perhaps a bias from our own dataset. But our theory behind this is that the more visibility and transparency there exists in this market, the more, quite frankly, there is demand for our product. So we're not putting out reports where we slice the data in a very particular way that makes a very specific point. Right? We're fully disclosing all the methodology and putting all this data out there for free because we think that this transparency is what's needed to turn the drop in the bucket into the whole bucket. And then quite frankly, our product makes a lot more sense in that in that world. Yeah. So we're trying to make sure we build that world. Love it. That's awesome. **Drew Rogers** (29:39) Kevin, we'll see you soon, man. It's always a gift to catch up with you. Thanks for the time. Always applied, bro. Thanks for having me on, guys. See you. Cheers. See you.