Inside VanEck Ventures' $40M Stablecoin and Tokenized Equity Thesis

Wyatt, what's up? Good to see you. Hey. How are you? Thank you for having Doing great. Yeah. I'm pumped for this. We wanna have more investors and venture partners, people minded with, like, looking ahead more more on the show and have a have a deeper presence. And so when we were thinking through that, I was thinking back to your money machines

request for startups. I know we've been trying to get this on the calendar for quite some time, so I'm glad that we're finally making it happen. Yeah. No. Really, really, really appreciate you guys having me on. Excited to chat. Okay. So frame frame your role at VanEck Ventures, both, like, what you're doing in that group and then the role that that team plays more broadly within within VanEck. I think that'd be a great place to start. Yeah.

Let me give you I'll I'll I'll take a little step back in just how we how we got to VanEck. So my my partner in this fund, Juan Lopez, and I met at Circle. I joined Circle in 2018 through the acquisition of this company called Seed Invest. Circle, despite being, you know, a big player in the payment space, was very early to the entire tokenized asset thesis in the RWA market, probably before anybody was, dating back to 2018. So that's what I spent a lot of time on at Circle initially.

It was just the wrong timing, both in terms of, like, the infrastructure that we had at the time with blockchains, with wallets, with bridging, as well as just the completely wrong regulatory environment. And so, you know, we're very bluntly told not to pursue things around tokenization from regulators.

But throughout that, Circle tried their hands at at many different products, including exchange business, payment business, tokenization platforms, and USDC was launched through that period of time and, of course, you know, ended up exploding. And so on the back of DeFi summer, we started to to brainstorm around what what would it look like investing in the USDC ecosystem. So both Juan and I had those views. We're able to share them with leadership and decided to come together to launch Circle Ventures.

And so that's how we we we got started investing. We had the pleasure of investing in amazing companies very early on, like RAIN, Dollar App, now ARC, Blackbird, and many, many others, kind of all up and down the stack from blockchains themselves infrastructure to end applications for businesses and consumers. And through that, ended up meeting the team at VanEck who VanEck is a traditional asset management firm. However, they were very early to crypto.

They're, I think, one of the first, if not the first firm to file for the Bitcoin and EAT spot ETFs back in 2016, 2017 2017. So I had to wait a really long time for those to come out, but built a research arm, launched a hedge fund, and had a lot of demand from founders to be on the cap table earlier. And so when we met, we just really kinda clicked over this thesis of, like, we think the two biggest buckets that are are the largest markets in crypto are gonna be capital markets and payments.

And having that connection between our time at Circle and being able to sit within an asset management firm that's 70 years old and, you know, commands over 200,000,000,000 in AUM, we could probably be dangerous. But, you know, we wanna come in early, be one of the first checks of these companies, and be a zero to one partner. And then over time, we'll scale up our funds. So we ended up raising a $40,000,000 vehicle. So while we're I think we can be very strategic to entrepreneurs, we are not a strategic fund.

We are a for profit venture fund. All of our funds are set up like that at VanEck, and we're in the process of launching more funds soon so that we can cover the entire entrepreneur journey, not just in crypto, but in any industry that we think is going to change the world. And so we're very passionate right now about all things that are happening around fintech as it relates to blockchains. So we can dive into that because we're we're we're we geek out about it all the time.

And then we have other funds that are set up to capture where I think more of the market is moving in the AI space, which is which is a much later stage in where we are. Yeah.

Such an amazing such an amazing background in terms of the role that I mean, Circle Ventures has played such a crucial role in some of the most notable and impactful startups surrounding the infrastructure of what stablecoins are. I think RAIN is a perfect example of that. What were some of those learnings that you specifically felt like you applied into the the VanEck Ventures team and and bringing that to life and and going into that that you actually took from the circle days going through that.

It's different different use case, different company, different history.

What were some of those what was some of the muscle that you built there that was helpful to now be successful in at Van Neck? There's a certain founder archetype that I think we noticed, and I, you know, I mentioned some of those characters for being great examples of they had a deep understanding of the market that they were attacking and how it works today. So they they don't come in blindly and just say, like, stablecoin solved everything. If we could just move money between wallets, that's it. We're good to go.

All the companies from that era did not survive. It was the Bridges, the Rains, etcetera, many other different player, BB and K, that solved the hard points generally around on off ramping from crypto as well as ailing compliance. And I think compliance is gonna be and continues to be a huge category. Hasn't really made its way into tokenized assets yet.

There's so many analogies I can pull between, like, how payments were thought about at the time and how tokenized assets are thought about today, which is, like, you put them on a blockchain, you let them run wild, and that's just not how the world works. So I I I think we now have a a founder archetype that we we understand and we look for, and and they have to have that deep understanding of, like, what do the what how do these markets operate today, where are the inefficiencies?

And to not be idealistic about just put it on a blockchain and it's solved, but to be, like, very pragmatic about which parts of blockchain infrastructure could actually solve for these markets and understand that, especially in this kind of, like, you know, 1.5 phase as we move to these new rails, and I think this is like a fintech two point o moment, that it's generally not it's not something that happens overnight, just like ecommerce. Like, it happens over ten, twenty years. AI could definitely accelerate this.

Stablecoins could definitely accelerate So maybe it happens at a faster clip, but it's not like a one to two year transition. So I think if you look at a lot of the data around stablecoins today, whether it's for payments or capital markets use cases, it's growing rapidly, but we're still kind of in the one to 2% penetration if you, like, actually sift through the data. Artemis and Visa, think, have done great great examples of that.

But, yeah, we we definitely look more towards founders that just, like, have deep domain expertise in whatever industry they're attacking versus just thinking as just broadly as, like, crypto, we and need to specialize in crypto. I think crypto has proven that it's really it has strong product market fit in changing financial services. Then you have to say, okay. Like, aspect of financial services are you attacking? Of which there's massive TAMs to go after.

We we really wanna go after, I think, capital markets and payments, first and foremost. Yeah.

When we look back at the Circle Ventures, USTC, plus some of those infrastructure plays and key areas of pain that those founders solved, there are clear winners and there are clear, like, lanes of focus there that are are awesome success stories. It seems to me though that there's, like, a very interesting and, you know, a similar maybe framework, but a unique opportunity now as we enter the kind of modern capital markets standpoint. And I'm I'm curious, like, where you see the opportunities.

Maybe this leads a little bit into the money machine stuff, but, like, where you see similar opportunities where the firm can actually align, accelerate, attach themselves to these types of founders,

but specifically founders who might be thinking more about, like, yeah, how you define capital markets and payments. Like, what is that practically what are some of those lanes under those categories that you're really excited about right now? Yeah. One of the one of the reasons we Juan and I came to Van Ack versus, say, starting our own, you know, Wyatt Wyatt and Juan Capital was we felt like we could be really dangerous and, like, hit the ground running.

Because Van Ack has such a wonderful brand, has seventy years of operating experience, and can let us focus on what we really wanna do, which is helping founders go zero to one. But we can also get creative in ways that maybe a venture capital fund in of itself can't. We can do things off balance sheet. We can lean in from a product perspective. So that's not gonna be broadly applicable to every company, but I would say on, like, the capital markets asset management side, it absolutely is.

These companies are successful. We should be able to partner in a meaningful way. Yeah. I think there, we just have a lot more flexibility than, say, a traditional $40,000,000 venture fund because we sit with inside a $200,000,000,000 asset management firm. To get into, like, specific opportunities today, I mean, you know, I kinda break them down as, like, BBB payments and capital markets. We can get into, like, what those specific use cases are.

On the payment side, I mean, like, Stripe is a $150,000,000,000 company. They touch maybe, like, max 2% of global b two b payment flows. I think if there's ever a signal to be bullish on, Stripe had zero crypto strategy twelve months ago. They have a phenomenally integrated crypto strategy today with Bridge, with Privy, with Tempo. And I think they're proving and this is this is one of, I think, the the other key pieces of founder archetype that we look for.

They're proving and showing people how to commercialize this technology. You look at what they put out today with DoorDash and Airbnb. Like, they're bringing the customers to the table that most l ones have have attempted to over the last five years. They're closing them. I think Canton, I think Robinhood are starting to do some of those things on the capital market side. Arc and Base are also notable examples. These are all, quote, corpo chains.

But the corpo chains have the muscle and the BD expertise because Stripe already owns that account, so they can easily go into those enterprises and do a deal. So you have to be careful, especially as a seed station investor. You need to be careful about, like, are we competing with Stripe here? But I think there are tangential areas in which we can be very complementary to that stack.

But I also think, again, they're they're they're small still a small percentage of the global TAM, which is why they get such a strong premium to companies like Adyen because they're so innovative, because the Stripe brand has such a premium. But that doesn't mean that there aren't gonna be opportunities for for companies to go in and compete. OpenFX is a really interesting one that that's recently announced a large fundraise who I think in the in the space of twenty four months went from zero to Yeah.

Tens of billions Yeah. Those numbers are crazy. We we, I think, reported on that the day that they announced that latest round. And,

yeah, the the growth numbers there are absolutely wild. You guys were involved with this? No. No. We're not investors,

but just, you know, fans of the company from a distance. But I think that just shows, like, they're solving a very specific pain point in a specific market. Mhmm. There are a lot of pain points to still solve in the global South, and we are investing behind them. So, you know, we're investors in companies like ZAR, who are enabling a consumer to now have a non custodial wallet and exchange their local currency for stablecoins and hold them versus holding cash at their house and holding US dollars.

You're you're giving people digital dollar access. That in turn is creating this really interesting merchant network that almost looks like Uber for stablecoins. Separately, we're we're working on similar unannounced investment that's providing last mile fiat liquidity for companies that are moving stablecoin payments where you have actually a settlement issue. Stablecoins feel instant, but they actually don't settle unless the entire world is is on stablecoins, which we know they're not.

The acceleration of those markets actually creates new issues and tensions that you can go attack, and I think I think we're gonna see a lot of big businesses pop up in that sector. And then on the capital market side, that's more closer to home for Van Ack. Like, a new railway is being laid, and it's it's upon us to be competitive as an asset management firm and tap into that audience. You know, there are billions of people who are now have connectivity to stablecoins and crypto wallets.

That's a new lane, and I think actually creates a much simpler customer acquisition channel where you're not going through so many different, you know, family offices and RIAs and people that are managing wealth. You're actually able to go direct to a consumer via an exchange,

via wallet, via some sort of fintech app. It seems sort of full circle given your origins. You said it's Seed Invest, looks like acquired by Start Engine, which is definitely, like, in that similar conversation around capital raising, challenging incumbents.

What what are the what are the kind of parallels that you see in terms of maybe what you moments or things that you noticed earlier in your career with, like, Seed Invest and capital formation that you are now looking into the the capital markets moment of today? It seems kind of like a thread throughout your journey. Yeah. Yeah. It's and we just invested in a company called Legion that I think is is probably best positioned to to solve these problems.

Part of it is a regulatory issue, but, you know, ultimately, it's very hard to give retail access to companies today, whether it be them buying directly in equity position or them being rewarded as a user. Uber was the first to try to crack this through their IPO with drivers, but, like, the reality is, in the same way that we incentivize crypto participants with tokens, we should be able to do the same thing with equity. I think that will change. The not a credit investor role should change.

And in doing so, think you're gonna just open up access where everybody can can invest in private companies. Today, because of those limitations, you have products like Robinhood Ventures, where you can invest in a basket of private companies that trade publicly, and, you know, that's, I think, enabled people to have access to things like OpenAI, Stripe, Databricks, etcetera. So there's clear demand on, like, the late stage winners, but that's not how most people are, I think, make money in in venture. You know?

You're you're underwriting, like, what, maybe a two, three x or something like that. There's opportunities in why we why we invest in the early stages is, like, a two, three x does nothing for our fund. We need x 200 x, 500 x, a thousand x. So I think there's still a world in which we need to educate the retail market on, like, how venture works. I see the discourse daily in crypto where they point at things that fail all the time. Reality is, like, 90% of your venture portfolio is going to fail.

Maybe there's ways in which people don't necessarily have to invest, but they can earn. So those are very exciting categories. But the infrastructure to make that happen, like, really hasn't been built. Blockchains are very good at that. So I think you're gonna see a lot in private fund tokenization infrastructure from companies like Legion, Superstate.

And then more on the publicly traded side, we have positions in companies like Denari who enable you to access tokenized equities from anywhere across the world via a single API. So all assets, I think, are are coming on chain. It's the the disconnect today is more on the distribution side. I think capital markets will will follow that once we have clear regulation around things like the nonaccredit investor rule. Yeah. I'm excited to maybe and ask. I'd love to talk to the Denari team.

This was something that also came up in a conversation last week with the Sesto

platform. They're building, like, a one stop shop for trading what you believe, and I think they work with Denari in some ways or at least we're building on top of them in some ways. So would love to highlight that team more. It seems like a really interesting yeah. They have a really interesting seat at this table. Okay. I'm popping up the money machines request for startups here. The trash truck honking outside my window. Love that.

Where do you see Denari falling in falling into this, or are there any, like, specific I know there I think there are, like, 12 of these that you called out, ones that you wanna focus on, or any, like, changes since since you've you've launched this? I think this is now maybe a month or two old. Yeah. No. I I can I can I can jump in on on the Denari's piece specifically?

I mean, it's very clear that how we ingest information and make decisions is changing dramatically, and that agents will be a huge component of that decision making framework. And so if you think of asset management as as an example, ETFs and how these products are ingested by the end consumers, it's likely a function of, like, what you are presented by your financial adviser adviser or the investment platform that you use.

And so you're seeing increasingly people are playing around with Claude to actually make investment decisions. What should I you know, Claude, what should I invest in? Or I wanna build a position in AI companies. How do I do that? These agents are then gonna go act on your behalf. And so I think Denari serves as like a catalog in a library that that could happen. What gets more interesting is when the asset issuers then publish.

And I think what's what's cool about this is it becomes kind of a headless marketplace, where on one hand, you have the assets themselves. Let's take an ETF from Van Eck, like SMH, which I think is our our largest asset today, our semiconductor ETF, which gives you broad exposure to the AI economy. An agent doesn't need to be sold that. They don't need to go you know, you don't need to go play golf with them or build a relationship for five or ten years.

The the agent is gonna make those informed decisions based on, like, real data and returns. And so it becomes more of a perk. And so all these tactics we have of, like, acquiring AUM and I don't know. Like, it it completely changes that dynamic. And so you need the catalog, and you need the library for them to go access this.

Denari enables you to do that in a much more global environment than, say, how, you know, traditional if you were buying through traditional broker would work, which is just like the settlement times between countries doesn't doesn't really work, and I think that's where tokenized equities can can really succeed.

But, yeah, I think the the the broader purpose of this was as we were thinking about agents in general and agents as it overlaps with finance, like, the name money machines came up because it's like, that's really what they are. They're gonna handle all sorts of administrative tasks across payments, across investing, and challenge, I think, the nature of how we think of these businesses today. And so it's something we're very excited about.

I was just gonna say one one quick caveat is I think a lot of these companies today, like, you have to build a durable business outside the agenetic economy before you're gonna be able to go maximize value in the agenetic economy. Because I think there's there's still not a lot of activity there. It's still the hobbyists that are playing around with OpenClaw. They're trying to hook things into Claude. So, like, it's getting exponentially better.

I think there's there's too many businesses that are are they're probably jumping on just the agentic side of things and seeing not as much luck versus you can still biz build a lot of these businesses today for humans and then optimize those businesses as as more agents come online. Yeah. So you said the word administrative,

and I I think that's a good word. But I'm also thinking through, like, for investors or maybe specific types of investors, I think we can all agree that there's gonna be a reality where and there already is a reality if you look at the volumes. Like, agents are trading.

They are making investment decisions on behalf of the people they represent based on either direct I guess that's where where I would be curious in your mind of, like, where do you see the real use cases between investors and their the agents that represent them? Like, what are the first initial use cases where agents will be trusted to go and actually execute these types of on chain actions? And what is missing in your view from that happening at a scale,

at a compliance in a compliant way? I'm imagining there's some missing pieces to actually do this, but we're starting to see really interesting opportunities. What what do you think about that? Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll I'll give you, like, a really quick example of how it could be used in the venture capital world, which is, like, we largely use templated documents. We use, like, National Venture Capital Association documents. We do safe notes. You know? That's generally the the y combinator standard.

Do preferred equity. The closing conditions are all largely the same. So Fred Wilson, who's general partner of USV, took, like, ten, fifteen years of of his data, like, chucked it in NotebookLM, and basically was like, I have a lawyer who's an agent because these things are so repetitive that these tasks can easily be learned done. And so, like, you're gonna rely a lot less on your lawyers to to do these activities.

And then separately, like, if the next piece is just funding something, like, why can't an agent fund on your behalf? If it knows where the bank account information is or if they wanna get paid in USDC, that's not a very challenging task. So, like, those are simple administrative things. Where it gets more complicated are some of the points you mentioned around, like, moving payments on behalf of a company or actually buying and selling equities and and trying to follow the laws there.

I mentioned this before, but I still just think there's a giant lack of compliance around things like tokenized equities. A lot of them are just following some regas exemption, but not really tracking the secondary flows, meaning that they could be sold abroad and immediately be traded back into The United States. Right? It could be unknowingly, you know, a North Korean trading with somebody in New York, and I think you're gonna have, like, countless examples of where that starts to fail.

But if we take current compliance tools and start to put agents into those workflows, I guarantee you that they're just gonna get better and better. So as these models get better, I think the tools that we're gonna be able to build are gonna get a lot better. Today, it's still a little bit of as it pertains to crypto activity, it's like the most simple forms. Like, direct an agent to go do something, have it go buy and sell Bitcoin, build trading bots. Like, we've had these for quite some time.

The next leg is, I think, it'd be like, how do you apply them to real workflows? The companies that are in a really good position to do that today would be the, like, the likes of Ramp and people who, again, already own that customer, which is why if you're like you're purely building it for an agent today, it's hard to figure out where you're gonna go acquire that agent.

Whereas if you have a platform with sticky customer base, you're just gonna enable people's agents to go right into the workflows that you already trust. And you're gonna say, like, I'm enabling my agent my my Claude agent to go hook into my Ramp business account and go run my finances and and tell me how things should operate, and I'll just authorize. And over time, as you build trust, you know, you'll trust it as an employee. Yeah. Where where do you see personally as an investor now?

Something that I'm I'm kind of torn on this piece a little bit. You have such an opportunity for agents to do research and to gather information and to synthesize that information

at a scale and an accuracy that is just superior to a human being. Like, there's no doubting it. But there's also this element, and you kinda spoke to it earlier of, like, there's a human gut feeling of, like, a person and how you feel like that person will operate in the world when they're required to go through, like, very difficult situations and all all the things that make, I think, good investors in the trenches with, especially early stage founders and, like, picking winners.

Like, where do you see the role that agents might play in in that kind of early stage investing landscape

versus the things that you think will always remain the human the human's job? How you thinking about that? I mean, I definitely think you always want a human in the room. I I would love to test over time. Like, could you replace humans? I think one thing Juan and I love is, like, we love we love being a small partnership. And so I think that naturally leans towards, like, we're gonna have to build agents to augment ourselves to be the most productive versions of ourselves.

So, you know, we don't necessarily wanna have a 30 person team. But today, that lends the advantage of, like, we probably could build something equivalent of that in the next couple years. But in the meantime, what you can do is you you just you enable the agent to just observe you and learn and listen to your conversations. And so we're constantly talking about feedback. You get off a call. You're like, you know, what did you think? I like this. I like that. I didn't like this. I didn't like that answer.

Why didn't you like that answer? Right? And so we enable our agents to listen to us and learn, and they they understand agents in that in that kind of debrief call. Sure. Yeah. And they can understand our writing style and how we write memos, and that a lot of that we've taken from our time at Circle. We were very memo forward. But something that I think stuck with both of us, we're having a conversation about this the other day.

I I'm forgetting who it was from Sequoia, was talking about how they personally write all their investment memos, and they know how excited they are about investment, how how much they wanna sprint after it when they actually write the memo because the memo writes itself.

And I think we've all felt that as investors of, like, if you're pumped about a company, like, you can't wait to to to write something down and share with everybody else and then, you know, get all your questions answered and get back on the phone with this company. Like, you can't wait to get to work.

And so if you if I think our concern is if you push too much of the actual diligence and intelligence work to an agent, you're probably gonna get some, like I don't wanna say it's slop, but it's just gonna be like, yeah. Sure. This looks like a good investment. Right? Because I still think it you have to bring your context to the situation. So over time, I have no doubt that, like, there's gonna be an analyst on our team that's probably gonna be, like, just as good as if we hired an employee.

The question is, like, could we promote them to partner? I don't know. Not yet. But I but but, like, the way that these models are improving, right, if you assume they're gonna get a million times better from here, absolutely. Because the context that we probably don't have that they can go acquire is, like, all the greatest venture capital knowledge of all time. They could acquire it from the Internet, from podcasts. Right? And, like, they can go form what would be maybe the the ultimate venture capitalist.

But another area I think they're really AI is really good at today is, like, starting to pick up questions and ask things that, like, maybe you didn't think of. And so, you know, again, it can learn what questions you ask. We like to understand about the founder's background, their origin story, what motivates them to really go take this shot because it's not an easy like, no founder has an easy job. It's the hardest job. So, like, why are you doing this? Right? Like, you're you're destined to fail.

What wakes you up every morning to go out there and and, like, you know, knowing almost certain death, like, do it anyway? And that's a really important thing. But when it comes to, like, the tactical aspects of the business, like, Claude is amazing. He can go through everything. Like, how are you thinking about monetization? You know, what other aspects of the business could or what other channels could they grow into? New revenue lines. Right?

So anything where where you can go feed it tons of data, like, it can come out with some really, really great questions. So, yeah, today it's an analyst. Let's see. Maybe one day it's a partner, but not yet. It's really cool. Any I know we gotta wrap here soon. Any any final thoughts on money machines, specific areas maybe that you know, you have 12 here. Any in the last few weeks that seem new or exciting that weren't included or maybe edits to to this? I I highly recommend anyone I have my screen. Yeah.

It's for I I wouldn't expect to remember all of say, since we've published that, I think we've made two investments, maybe three, that we've covered on that list that we didn't have before. So we haven't announced them. I can't say the names, but I believe the titles were, like, liquidity operating system. We've made a really interesting investment there that we're that we're super excited about. There's another one around, like, yield and and DeFi as an API, which I think is incredibly important for agents.

We're kinda taking that catalog approach. This is something that that we think is is very complementary to what Denari has built more on, like, the yeah. Yeah. So we've made we've made investment there. And there's some interesting things around, like, indices as it relates to new markets. I'm not sure exactly how we described it or if we or if we might have scrapped it. Nah. We might have scrapped it. But there was another one around This is what you said before, liquidity ops. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We've we've made an investment there. So some of these things we were working on, and we wanted to put this out there, and, you know, we ended up closing two investments from it. So that was great. But the next one is, like, we strong believers that asset management and how products are created is going to change. Because, again, like, an agent just might be superior to us in building an industry or building a new marketplaces. So we talked a little bit about in here, like, compute marketplaces.

What about just, like, net new marketplaces? So that could be more like generative indexing, indexing around new types of prediction markets, and how do you then package those up and sell them to, I think, both retail audiences, but also more of the institutional crowd, which today is still largely locked out of most long tail prediction markets. So, yeah, it's been very cool. Glad we put that out.

We'll we'll continue to add to it, and, hopefully, we'll actually have a lot more coming soon on just the broader money machines thesis, because there's some there's some great stories that we've picked up on over the years from a lot of different founders, and we wanna we wanna help highlight that.

Because I I still don't think the world understands, and I'm glad you guys are doing this type of media because, like, my father-in-law worked in finance for, like, twenty, thirty years and has no clue what stablecoins are. Right? So, like, it just goes to show how early we are. And then you add in this AI stuff, and it just gets people confused.

So, you know, we wanna we wanna continue to tell the stories of the amazing founders that we've had the pleasure of working with from dating back to Circle to now here at Van Acken and elevate their stories so it's more easily understandable

because there's some really cool things being built. Yeah. Well, that's definitely our mission here. So if if you think of ways that we could help, let us know. Okay. We have podcast called Stable Minded. So we really do two things. We do this show live and then Stable Minded, which is a perfect medium for that sort of thing. I'll actually be in New York and Brooklyn next week doing more interviews.

If you have any founders around that area who wanna go deeper and sit down and do more of that, like, hey, what are you building? Where have you been? That would be a great opportunity for that because we love we love elevating those stories. So let me know. Cool. Will do. Awesome, Wyatt. Well, thank you for the time. You're based in and around New York. Correct? Is that true? That's right. Yep. Yep. You can generally find me in Manhattan today working from home. Awesome, man. Well, maybe we can connect next week.

Thanks for joining us, and appreciate your your thought leadership in the space. It's been fun learning from you. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Come, man. Cheers. Bye.