# True Markets builds TrueX on a $9 million seed with 13 people Stabledash Live, a Stabledash show. Sep 1, 2026. Vishal Gupta. https://live.stabledash.com/shows/the-live-show/episodes/coinbases-ex-head-of-markets-on-the-risks-he-wishes-hed-wDPQyVxMTn4 The former head of Coinbase's exchange business says his old employer should have taken bigger risks, and he is building his startup to take them. Vishal Gupta, founder and CEO of True Markets, is building TrueX, a non-custodial stablecoin-native exchange, on a $9 million seed. The company has 13 people, 10 of them engineers. Gupta describes it as a single API for all markets, starting with crypto. ## From Goldman to Coinbase Vishal Gupta joined Goldman in 2002, when markets were starting to go electronic. He later launched and grew USDC at Circle from zero, then ran Coinbase's exchange business from before its IPO through after it, taking it from 20 assets to 235 and launching two derivative exchanges. ## The risks he wishes he'd taken Vishal Gupta calls Coinbase probably the best job he has ever had, but says it should have let his team take bigger risks. His view is that perps and Base should have shipped as one effort: "Brian should have locked me and Jesse in the room," he says. He also wishes he had pushed harder on securities and prediction markets. In 2022 and 2023, he says, prediction markets were still very exotic, and the company had to stay safe as a licensed CFTC regulated business. At a startup, his advice is blunter: "Fuck around and find out." ## Fixing fragmented markets Vishal Gupta says tokenized securities now come in so many flavors that the fragmentation is never good for a market. He argues the space needs consortiums, a FINRA-like self-regulatory body and help from the SEC and the CFTC to pull it together. ## Built for agents True Markets supports Base, Solana, HyperEVM, Robinhood and other chains, and has a consumer app in the US App Store, with international expansion and Hyperliquid access planned. Gupta says the next retail user will be someone coding on Claude, for whom existing platforms are too expensive. He says providing liquidity on a crypto exchange could cost 40 bps, and it is zero on his. He calls True Markets one of the first markets businesses built in the AI wave and says the team plans and ships in weekly OODA loops. It runs monthly trading competitions and works with the Pakistani neobank Oversee, Latitude and Dakota, including a prediction market project. Taken together, Vishal Gupta is building True Markets around the bets he says Coinbase was too cautious to make: prediction markets, tokenized securities and low-cost access for traders who build with AI. ## Key takeaways 1. True Markets is building TrueX, a non-custodial stablecoin-native exchange, on a $9 million seed with 13 people, 10 of them engineers. 2. Vishal Gupta says Coinbase should have launched perps and Base together, and he wishes he had pushed harder on prediction markets and securities. 3. Gupta expects the next retail user to be someone coding on Claude, and he says True Markets charges zero for providing liquidity where a crypto exchange could charge 40 bps. ## Chapters - 0:00 True Markets offers one API for crypto markets - 2:54 The company name comes from finding the real price - 6:14 Tokenization only makes sense when it adds real utility - 9:16 Fragmented tokenized securities need regulation and routing infrastructure - 13:48 Coinbase should have taken bigger risks on perps and Base - 18:41 Prediction markets felt too exotic for a regulated exchange - 20:08 AI agents and API traders are the next retail users - 22:49 Weekly OODA loops let a startup outpace incumbents - 27:09 Monthly trading competitions and partners in the stablecoin space ## Transcript **Drew Rogers** (0:00) Vishal, **Vishal Gupta** (0:01) the man. How are doing? How are you, man? This is you. Welcome to the show. Good to see you again. **Drew Rogers** (0:07) Always an issue when you go, like, podcast to show because it feels like we... You kinda start... Like, the podcast in our mind is, like, the end destination of going really deep after you kinda know someone, but we just, like, threw you in. We jumped straight into that. So we're going backward with you, but thanks for coming on, man. Of course, man. Of course. Good to be here. I'm excited for Zach to have like a fresh a fresh approach because I know he's he's... Think he's listened to the episode, but Sure. I know this is the first time he's he's getting to know true markets a little bit. Yeah. Maybe I can give like a high level if that's helpful. Please. Yeah. Please. Yeah. So our core thesis **Vishal Gupta** (0:43) in... At true markets is that markets are everywhere. Right? And that, you know, you're starting to see that play out with prediction markets, you know, crypto markets have always believed that twenty four seven, the whole shebang. And we wanna enable the next wave of markets, whether that be crypto and beyond. TrueMarkets is really an... A single API for all markets. Starting with crypto and going from there, You know, you're seeing the likes of, you know, Fomo apps, pump apps, all these other apps out there. There's a lot of complexity to crypto markets, including what chain are you on, what stablecoin are you using, you know, what what assets are you enabling, including, like, which tokenized security is the right one. And our goal is to just make it simple. We're a single API. We can be used by banks, brokers, fintechs, apps. Anybody that is holding a stablecoin and wants to get access to a volatile asset can use our platform. We can be used for payments... Payment plays. We do one for one swapping between Genius stablecoins. We currently support Base Solana, HyperEVM, Robinhood, and other chains. Again, a single API to get crypto infrastructure, crypto markets, and then go beyond that. For the regular, you know, everyday user, we have an app. You can download the app as well in The US App Store. We're going international soon. You'll see Hyperliquids enabled there internationally, and and and all that's available. Yeah. That's all available right now. Go to truemarkets.co. You know, background, obviously, I I I came from TradFi, ten years to Goldman, fast forwarding... Forwarding to crypto. 2018, I was in charge of launching growth of USDC. I learned a lot there and ran Coinbase's exchange business pre IPO to post IPO, taking it from 20 assets to 235, then launching two derivative exchanges. I was I was lead on Coinbase CRO back in the day, so you can see some elements of of that learnings there in in our in our UI. The the first kind of question I would have is, as we position this, is **Drew Rogers** (2:54) your your thesis or your belief around what a true market is, and also where that that name comes from as we kick off here? Where does that belief to derive? **Vishal Gupta** (3:05) Yeah. It's funny. You know, sitting on training floors for most of my career, you would hear a bunch of phrases over and over again. And, you know, there's people that bid this and they're offered this, but, like, the question would always be like, well, what's the true market? What's the actual print? Like, what are we gonna actually find? Where's the actual market for this thing? And that's always kinda been cooking in my head for a while. You know, with the evolution of of prediction markets and them coming out, we always thought there was some idea of truth within markets and truth behind markets. Like, you know, there was this novel quote that I quote. You know, I was at Network State a couple years back, and we had already named the company, but it really kind of rang true, where he said a group of people that think similarly and come to a consensus as a mob, a group of people that think differently and come to a consensus as a market. And there's, like, some idea of, like, truth within the market. So, like, if you go to, like, if you go to, like, Home Depot and you go buy a two by four, as long as it's within the market price, you're not paying $14 for the two by four. You're paying, like, $2 or whatever it is. Right? And, there's, like, this idea of of truth within markets. And, again, I I think that, you know, the the Poly team, the call sheet team has done a good job of getting those markets to the public, and I love that space. **Drew Rogers** (4:17) It would be kind of a wild wild reality if fixed pricing... Because like, you go to you go to Home Depot, you buy a two by four. It's like there's no market. It's just like it is what it is, or at least the the price is determined. Yeah. But in the world of assets and and equities and all these... Like, the price is whatever someone will pay for it, which can be **Vishal Gupta** (4:36) always moving. So It changes. I mean We saw it with, like, Uber. Right? We saw, like, surge pricing. That is a market. Like Yeah. The Uber market is a market. It's a live market. So if you look at it like that, market's liquidity as a service will be a big thing over time. Right? And it's the event of the Internet and all the... And everybody having a computer in their pocket. At some point, maybe the two by four should be life priced. Maybe **Drew Rogers** (4:58) maybe I should be able to get, like, tickets to the Odyssey and IMAX when, you know, at a live I saw that tweet. Yeah. Speak about that. Because I literally had that experience. I was like, really wanting to see this movie. Christopher Nolan's like my favorite. And Yeah. Yeah. For weeks, we're... We had like one IMAX theater in my city, and it's like Yeah. I can't do that into this place. **Vishal Gupta** (5:16) Yeah. There's there's an idea around fixed pricing. There's an idea around, like, you know, obviously, like, adjusted pricing according to supply demand curves. And, like, things like the movies, like, obviously, they're fixed for a reason. You know, you don't want the thing going to 25ยข if nobody's showing up. But, like, you do have the ability, and you should have the ability to adjust to, like, a supply issue. Right? So right now, if you want to go see The Odyssey or Spider Man in a top tier theater, it's going to be impossible. But you should be able to bid on it. You should be able to get it. And you're starting to see these, like, obviously with concert price tickets and, like, the kind of the real time adjustment there. I expect to see that everywhere. Like, you're gonna see real time adjustments. You're gonna see supply and demand curves kind of showing up. Yeah. Exactly. In terms of surge pricing, that shouldn't be hard to get. I mean, I should just be able to get a ticket. There shouldn't be some, like, hard thing to do. Right? So that's that's where that's where I think we're going. **Drew Rogers** (6:12) Yeah. Zach, what... **Zach Fowler** (6:14) Go go for it. I won't I won't drive too hard. I was gonna I was gonna ask. I mean, we've kind of... We we cover, yeah, Tuesday on the stream, Galaxy and their announcement with, like, USHP bringing home prices on chain. We've talked with XP tickets that are creating secondary markets on chain for, you know, events, tickets, kind of like more of this odyssey style. What markets don't exist right now or really, really young that you think should exist? Something like this u h... USHP, **Vishal Gupta** (6:45) other pry... Like, you might even mention, like you said Yeah. With lumber coming on chain. Yeah. I think What do wanna see exist? Where is it going? I I think... Yeah. I think there's, like, a question of, like, real time bidding around things that are, like, are sitting in supply of demand curves. And, like, again, like, crypto works because it's twenty four seven. People are constantly buying and selling, and these are order driven markets where people are just constantly doing that. You have market makers that have high profitability to provide, like, a quote both on... On both sides. Derivatives are, like, a quote driven market where you're like, hey. You need a decent quote. They're gonna be a little bit wide, but you at least can cross the spread and hit the thing. Then there's, like, markets that are, like, illiquid by by design, like, let's say the housing market. You know? It's not like I don't have, like, a real time pricing if I'm selling my apartment, but I'm offer... I'm... I wanna hear bids. I wanna, like, I wanna see people come in. And those things are really interesting. There's a reason... There's a bunch of reasons why we haven't seen tokenized, like, homes at this point or like... But there's benefits to allowing these things to not only be traded real time but settled real time. And I think that that's actually the key element that people... And people are like, oh, we should tokenize everything. And I'm like, well, you need some utility. Like, why should we tokenize this thing? And it should outweigh any risks associated with tokenization. And that's only really worked so far in, like, the stablecoin space. We are starting to see it in, like, tokenized real world assets or, like, regular securities internationally. But, like, is that gonna work in The United States? You're gonna need regulation. You're gonna need changes, and there's gotta be a reason why you wanna tokenize the thing. Is it portability? Is it, like, my ability to use it as collateral across other markets? Those are all important things. **Zach Fowler** (8:25) Yeah. Drew, what's the company that we've kind of mentioned a few times around tokenizing, creating markets around products in The US? Do you know which one I'm talking about? It's... We've we've brought it up a few times, and I can never remember the name. They have a really sweet website out of that. **Drew Rogers** (8:42) Tech Dollar, maybe? Is it Tech Dollar or American spend. American spend. The one. That's true. Think you said... Have you seen the social? **Vishal Gupta** (8:51) No. I, you know, I have been in the tokenization game long enough to see, like, a bunch of people try a couple things. And Yeah. The things that work are... You know, again, you look at the charts, and it's like, are... You know, tokenized real world assets, like, 95% of it, and and the growing aspect is is the stablecoin space. I am waiting for that next that next phase where we start tokenizing real things and and and training them. **Drew Rogers** (9:16) Are there are there certain things on your mind that maybe on the flip side of this Yeah. On the tokenize... From the tokenization conversation, stablecoins are one that I know you shared or, like, it makes sense that that there's buzz around this and that there's utility and speed of growth. Are there any other asset classes or use cases outside of stablecoins that actually aren't getting enough attention that you think should be or are not as... People aren't talking about as much? **Vishal Gupta** (9:47) So I I don't know if people aren't talking about them, but, like, the the fact that we're starting to see more of the Reagan MS securities find their way to tokenization is interesting. And... But the problem is you're seeing so many different flavors, and you're seeing, like, this, like, fragmentation that's never good for a market like that. So I do think that we probably need a version of regulation that allows that to make sense. You know, we we enabled... We've enabled hyperliquid. So you see Perfs on Tesla, and then you see Robinhood has their own spot market, you know, the one delta on, like, you know, their equity markets. Like, I think we're moving in a in a direction where, like, you're... People want the thing, especially internationally, but we need a little bit of prodding to, like, pull it all together. But once you do that, then you'll have... Derivatives are always kind of like the the tail, you know, the the dog... The tail wagging the dog. Right? These... The derivative markets are always kind of bigger than the spot markets. And you really can't do a good job with derivatives if there's fragmentation in the in the underlier. Right? So that's where I think we need consortiums, we need, you know, a FINRA like self regulatory body, we need some help in The US from the SEC and the CFTC to kind of pull this all together. **Drew Rogers** (11:07) Yeah. Well, so reg NMS, I'm looking at a reg NMS for dummies. NMS is the... Defines how trading works in The US for all listed stocks as automated trading increased. NMS ushered a new era of competition and trading. What was the significance of this? It looks like in, like... Where were you at in your career in o five, o seven when this was kind of the market? What what point... Why was this so important? Yeah. So I joined Goldman **Vishal Gupta** (11:33) in 2002, right, when markets were starting to electronify. And with regular math, we saw... Again, the rule said is effectively a broker need to get you the best price. You can't... Like, you see a lot of fragmentation in the crypto markets, like Bitcoin trades at different prices and at every different exchange. But as a broker in The United States, like, whether you trade through Robinhood, Fidelity, or anybody else, they need to get you the best price. And they... You can send it to an exchange. If the exchange doesn't have the right price, they either have to send it back to you, or they'd send it to another exchange. So that idea of ReganMS created a bunch of solutions and problems all at the same time. We saw dark pools arise. We saw internalization. We saw payment for workflow teams that are both... You know, it... I I think they're they're good for the end customer, but some people will think they're bad. You know, you saw, like, players like Robinhood show up and say, hey. I'm gonna give you fee fee trading because they're getting payment for on the other side. So, like, there's all these evolutions that have happened in the traditional markets, and I think crypto is trying to, like, just, like, get there as quickly as possible. And with that, you're seeing this hyper fragmentation, and you're seeing kind of a not a clear path to, like, a unified idea. And with that, you're gonna see failure. Right? Like, you need players to come together and say, hey. We're gonna trade these tokenized securities. There's, like, this utility that we're creating, and we're gonna lower the risks associated with this so we know what we're doing. At TrueMarkets, we look to not only allow you to route to the tokenized securities that you want, but we're gonna build order routers that allow you to get to the right securities for the right client type or for the right risk factor. Should we should we be trading a perp on Tesla or should... At Hyperliquid or should we be trading the Robinhood tokenized version or something else? And that's that's our goal. I think with fragmentation, you'll you'll see a need for infrastructure, and that's where we're at. We saw that in the stablecoin space. Genius is enabling the next wave of of stables. We're we're effectively hitting two point o. And with 2.0 stablecoins, you're gonna see a need to, like, build the infrastructure. I wanna come in with USCC and then buy a tokenized security at Robinhood. I'm Robinhood. Shame, but I need to convert it to USDG. Who's doing that work? That's where our team comes in. **Zach Fowler** (13:48) Do you see Go some movements go ahead, Zach. No. Wanna ask about Hyperliquid a little bit, because I think if you talk to somebody that's Trader and you pull up both interfaces, they're like, oh, why? These look the same. One, with your just history in markets, what was it like watching Hyperliquid launch? Like, were you skeptical at first? Did you kinda know that this was gonna be the next big thing and be the... Sounds like it's a pretty integral part of your business right now. Or, yeah, how has your even just outlook on Hyperliquid evolved? Yeah. We're just we're just now expanding internationally with Hyperliquid included. **Vishal Gupta** (14:20) So putting my Coinbase hat back on, I'd say one of our our big failings was, you know, Brian should have locked me and Jesse in the room and said, hey. You wanna launch Perps? You wanna launch Base? Like, you guys need to do this together. This is... Know, trading is... And the reality is we just try to derisk both projects as much as possible. Right? You know, I think after the NFT push, we saw that, you know, Coinbase can fail, and we should be careful about trying to do something that's really hard. And that, know, if if if the... If I could give the feedback to the execs... Any feedback I could give to the execs there was to, like, allow me to do harder things and let me fail harder. Right? Like, with perpetual features and we want to add a Coinbase, we were effectively given zero budget and zero ability to to lose. So we did the safest stuff. We just... We modeled it against our CFTC business, and we just wanted the thing to not fail. I think the writer... The bet... The better way to do it is, you know, we were launching Neptune, which is the perpetual features exchange, and, you know, and BASE at the same time. These are two... This is, you know, an amazing chain, and the use case that is the biggest use case that we had at Coinbase, we should we should should sat... We should have got locked in a room with a pizza and said, how do we launch these together? And that's that's probably one of our biggest stones. **Drew Rogers** (15:43) How do you how do you currently, Vishal, look back on the Coinbase era as you think about, like... Maybe maybe just one, like, your your personal learnings. But even more specifically, I think since we last spoke in person in Miami, the base kind of rearchitected narrative of, like, who they are trying to be and who they're trying to go after on the institutional side. Like, it seems like they're they're kind of course correcting now into a positioning that you would have probably wanted to see earlier? Like, what what... What's your take on on the movement there? **Vishal Gupta** (16:18) I mean, honestly, like... And this is the unfortunate part of, like, some of these bigger companies, they they do... And this is something that Coinbase, I think, wants to stop... Or or never wants to do is they they ship their org to a degree. I wasn't in the based conversations. Right? I was sitting adjacent to these businesses, and they were like, make markets work. You know? And I was head of markets. And, like, the reality is, like, we should have been locked in a river. That's that's what we weren't doing well. And I I don't have lot to say about what they've done or what they're doing, and I... I'm I'm glad that they... A main use case for for crypto remains trading and lending and all the other beautiful things that we're trying to do here. And I think it's it's a good idea to double down on that main main use case, obviously. I mean, that's where I live. But, you know, I I think what you... Again, Koyos is probably my best job I've ever had. I think the execs there are some of the best execs I've ever worked with. But, like, allow us to take bigger risks, that'd be amazing. **Zach Fowler** (17:15) Yeah. Would you say what you're building at TrueMarkets now is the is the truest or closest vision to what you would have built if you were locked in the room? **Vishal Gupta** (17:23) Yeah. I think I think that, you know, obviously, we don't have the the scale of a Coinbase, and we don't have the customer base of a Coinbase. And as a startup, you have to kind of find the first scratches of business and, know, startups are super hard and, like, all those things. But, yeah, we had a a market decision doc, and, you know, a lot of it sat in and around the things that we're building. I think, you know, I wish we ran faster into prediction markets. I wish I pushed harder on securities. I think that there's, like, things that I wish I did. And, like, again, I was somehow, like, you know, I was like a senior director at a big company, and, like, you know, I ran all markets, but that that means they listen to... You know, the execs will listen to you to a degree. Like, they let me launch a perp. So, like, I I don't think I was given the ability to take big risks. And that sucks. I mean, like, I I wish I wish I was I wish I was going harder when I was there. I was there for three years, and I wish I went even harder. Yeah. Mhmm. But we... No. But we also, like, went from 20 assets to 235 assets and lost derivatives, like, both internationally and in The US. Like, that's pretty hard to do. I wish... I I honestly had some eye and the angling around prediction markets. I I... It's funny. I dug up an old photo of Shane and I from 2021, and it's like, you know, I should have went harder at at Coinbase to, like, make that happen. What was the sentiment like around... **Drew Rogers** (18:41) At that time with prediction markets? I think now seeing the... Even Polymarket specifically, the success story of that, the partnerships they've been able to make, the funding that they've been able to achieve, like, everyone now knows, you know, prediction markets are here to stay in the conversation. **Vishal Gupta** (18:58) What was it like though at that time just a few years ago? Yeah. I mean, I I think taking taking the the ownership on my on my side here at Coinbase, when I was at Coinbase, would say, you know, we had a CFTC regulated DCM. We had an FCM. We were regulated by the CFTC. I wanted to do these more, like, exotic things. And at that time, you know, in 2022, 2023, like, those are still very exotic. I wanted to do those things, but I think that there was, like, an idea that we have to stay very safe given that we're a licensed CFTC regulated business. And, again, like, I think the reason why you start a company is to do riskier things, right, to to do things that they're not gonna let you do at a bigger company. So, like, at some point, you do have to, like, you know, you know, what do they say? Fuck around and find out. Like, you gotta do that. So of course, I wanna push harder, but that's why that's why you start your own company. Right? That's why you do something on your own, And I'm very happy to be doing that. And I mean, it's in our names. Like, TrueMarkets is as clear of, like, a bridge to my... You know, whenever I would write a market decision doc, that's effectively what I would say over and over again is what we're trying to build here. **Zach Fowler** (20:07) Yeah. Vishal, I wanna ask about... So now, you know, you've you've invested into this terminal. You said it was it was some learnings from Coinbase Pro, and now we're entering this era of AI. And you had a you had some set... You had a big portion, I think, in the interview you did with Drew where you're talking about an agent doesn't care about your brand marketing. It doesn't care about anything else. Largely doesn't care about how your website looks or how it looks. It just cares about your API. So how is that? Yeah. Now we're going into... We're entering this new era. How does that set up what you're building? How do you envision even agents starting to build with true markets? Like, what what is the to that part of business? **Vishal Gupta** (20:47) Even, like, going, like... Well, taking taking a step back. Like, our core infrastructure is a beautiful infrastructure that allows for c five, d five settlements, cross chain settlements across any stablecoin, across the chains that we support. And, again, like, our goal is to even trade securities, derivatives, everything that the whole shebang across a... Like, a single API, a sim... A single pathway. We call that the gateway. You can come in via our m c... MCP or CLIs, and we just, like, handle everything for you. Right? And I I do think that, like, you know, we have web services, we have app services, but what we're seeing is the re... The next retail user, the next, like, beautiful retail user is gonna be the guy that's gonna be coding unclawed, creating, like... Needs, like, to connect to a market, trade in a systematic manner. And to be honest, like, some of the existing platforms are just too expensive. Like, you can provide liquidity on an exchange... You know, a crypto exchange right now could cost 40 bps. It's zero on ours. Like, back in the day, it used to be zero by 10 bps, and you can make, take, and you could do all these things. And it's it's a beautiful API driven platform. But, like, the reality is, like, a lot of these fees are just too high for, like, a regular everyday API user. So our goal is not only can you directly connect to our markets using MCP, CLI, or even just FICS, REST, whatever you want, you can come in and hit that infrastructure. Or we'll be building out widgets within our web and within our app where you can start to systematically trade. But, like, within the app, you can say, hey. Like, you know, I wanna do this. And it'll construct a trading profile, a trade... You know, for a for a trade. It will enable it. It'll it'll take it down to the infrastructure level and trade it for you. And I think that that's where our benefit is. We're we're one of the first, like, markets driven business that was built in this AI wave, and, like, I couldn't probably do this in an existing business. You have to kinda start from scratch. **Drew Rogers** (22:48) Yeah. Vishal, how do you think about the the the lead up into an agentic trade like this, or the process that a sophisticated agent native investor will go through to actually get to a point where there's an agent trading on their behalf? Like, are they... How how are you seeing right now? We didn't really get into this in our last conversation, so just wanted to double click on, like, what is the role that you see media and information systems playing in this, training these models? **Vishal Gupta** (23:21) What kind of traders are you seeing maybe as first movers here? And what what does that look like? Yeah. I think, like, again, like, part of what we do is enable the next wave of trading apps and trading platforms, and, like, we wanna be the back end for all that stuff. And the other side of it is, like, I do think that there's, like, a retail or agentic trader that just needs, like, hey. I don't care if you're one platform or another. I just need access to this stuff, and I don't wanna... I wanna get this... The, like, the cheapest, best, safest way to do it, and we wanna be that. Right? And it changes on a on a week to week basis. So we do this thing... This is like a Marc Andreessen, like, if you can look it up, it's it's called an OODA loop, right, where you observe what's happening on the market, you orient yourself to the market, You decide on what to do, and then you create action. Right? And we do these, like, micro loops. It's like a a week by week basis of, what's happening on the market? Okay. Tokenized security is big. Yield, big. This is happening. This is happening. This is happening. Right? And what we try to do is we will, like, comp a plan, action the plan, and by the end of, like, the week, it's already out in the in the open, and it's, like, it's spinning up. And, like, start ups should be gauged by their ability to go fast and their ability to react fast, because, like, big companies just can't do it. And that's what our... That's what we're doing with these OODA loops. And there's, like, a really beautiful, like, Marc Andreessen, like, video somewhere, and then we should dig it up and give it to the team. But, like, it... Yeah. And I I I make my team watch it all the time where it's like, you have to go through these micro loops as quickly as possible. And, you know, if you're going through these loops very quickly, your competitors are still in these big old loops, and they're... They have to almost reorient themselves before you get out there. And, we're a small startup. We're tiny. But, like, that... If you keep that attitude up all the way through being big, you're gonna win because you're faster than everybody else. Where's that speed most impactful right now? Like, what is then the most recent iteration that you're like, man, we didn't really see this coming, but once it kind of hit my desk, like, I knew we had to move fast. Yeah. There's probably two things. I would say, like... So we we very quickly built out, like, rules based systematic trading that, like, you can just, like... You can just talk to a thing, and it's, like, it's doing its thing. Like, again, you can you can connect to Claude direct to our MCP and CLIs. You can do it through Claude. But the reality is, like, you kinda need, like, building blocks. Like like, you can't just tell Claude, hey. Make money. Like, that doesn't work. What you need is you need building blocks to say, hey. I want an action that kinda does this, and I want it to do that. And then I want you to measure it. I want you to go in a loop, and I want you to do it again. Right? And those building blocks and those are things that are coming out as we speak, that's, like, very interesting. The other things that we're saying is, like, obviously, there's there's these trends that hit these markets very quickly, and you have to, like, attach yourself to the trends very quickly. And, like, tokenized real world assets on Uniswap are happening and, like, in in other platforms. Robinhood's chain, very important. And we wanna be a platform where you can hit, you know, the many flavors of tokenized assets, but we also wanna be a place where we can route and get... Be like, hey. We're gonna help you make that decision because it is actually really hard. So we're making we're making, like, you know, we're making quick loops on that as well and trying to be a platform where you can just plug in. And, again, like, I think there's there's so many platforms and new players that are like, hey. I want stablecoin settlement. Cool. Within the app. Awesome. And have a credit card attachment. Cool. Like, now I want yield. Okay. Now I wanna, like, take that and do something volatile with it. Right? And the thing is not everybody needs to know markets. Not everybody needs to know how, like, to get payment for the flow or how to get a market maker to get involved or, like, which chain or how to pay the gas fees or which stablecoin do I need to go to, that's where they come to us. They just, like, plug into the API. You're a platform. You need access to to all that. That's what we do, and we do it better than everybody else. **Drew Rogers** (27:09) Let's go. Vishal, anything that we didn't cover either on the the podcast? Or I know I know when we had the conversation, you... The agent stuff was was coming, and you were excited about that. Anything that we missed that you guys have either recently launched or are excited to to go into? Yeah. We're doing trading competitions. We're giving away, like, thousands of dollars every month just, like, for people to come in, systematically trade. Like, reach out to me, reach out to the team. Like, you know, we have trading competitions every every month. **Vishal Gupta** (27:36) It's a good way to get your APIs out there. I think it's a really interesting time to be trading. And some things are super, like, super... Like, Bitcoin's trading flat. Some kind security is doing crazy things. Like, we're doing p and l, like, trading, competitions. Like, anybody that's trading, anybody that's trading via APIs, reach out to me. There you go. Sweaty summer showdown. Let's go. Yeah. So, like Yeah. So get out there. We got prizes out there. And I'm, like, the most accessible, like, exec out there in the space. Like, DM me. I have a question. Have a... Have an idea. DM me. I'll jump on a call with you. That's awesome. Vishal, I have one last question. **Zach Fowler** (28:13) Who... You obviously don't know our whole library of who we've interviewed, but who who is a profiler, who is somebody that you know that we should bring on the show that we haven't brought on the show yet? We're Absolutely. We also... We're we're coming out with **Drew Rogers** (28:27) a markets focused set part of the show. So this would have been like focus. Yeah. This would have been like a like a perfect conversation to... As we as we think about, you know --. This conversation is like extremely... The the the money conversation and the finance conversation is so broad, so we're trying to, like, segment them into specific tracks, and markets is definitely one of them. So asking that specifically in the context of, like, the market side of this. Yeah. I I think there's a couple players in the market side. I think, again, like, **Vishal Gupta** (28:57) that's my that's my sector, so I think I'm... We're the best at everything we do. So I'm probably the wrong guy to be like, who else in markets is cool? I think we do them the best. Or do you think building... Like like, companies or classes that would be building on top of True as well? Like, companies like that. Totally. Totally. We've been working with a couple players out there. There's a there's a really cool Pakistani neobank called Oversee that we've been working with that I think is really, really kinda cool. Hi, Roshan. How are you working with them? We just had Roshan on. What does that look like? Cool. Yeah. Yeah. So we're talking to those guys about, like, just, like, their stablecoin base, and, like, you know, we we'd love to, like, expand their their their, you know, their user set, their their their feature set. You know, the... I was really impressed by by by the CEOs of that business. So we're talking to, like, new teams every day, to be honest. Like, we've got a really great, like, team here that's out there selling. You know, I I really like the Latitude team, Cyril Matthew, who's ex Coinbase, so we were partnered on, like, USDC launch when I was at Circle. He was also, like, leading Stripe's crypto business and also was COO of Cyril Hash. He's launched a business called Latitude, so that... Those guys are really cool. They're doing something really interesting in the FiatFX stablecoin space. I like that a lot. Things that I don't wanna touch necessarily directly, they can be a great partner for us. You know, I love the Dakota theme. We actually... They they share one of our offices here in New York. Ryan and team are fantastic. We've got a we've got a cool project we're working on with those guys. We're dabbling in the prediction market space. I'll probably say less less now, but we can say more later. There's a lot of things I wanna do there. Stablecoin space is very interesting to so the Dakota Digital Team is the one that I would love to get me and Ryan on the phone on a a a chapter together. We can do it. Yeah. I'll shout out to Ryan. **Drew Rogers** (30:42) Vishal, thanks for the time and for the the future ideas. We'll be in touch. And I guess we'll see you also next week at our dinero dinner, it sounds like. I'll be there. Yep. Alright. Have a good one, man. Good to meet you, Vishal. See you. Good to meet you. Bye.