# Steakhouse Financial mandates cover more than half of Morpho stablecoin deposits

Stabledash Live, a Stabledash show. Aug 24, 2026. Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic.
https://live.stabledash.com/shows/the-live-show/episodes/coinbase-morpho-steakhouse-who-actually-decides-where-your-gpLJ_D_Rec4

Co-founder Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic explains how a curator that never holds customer money sets where stablecoin deposits from Coinbase, Robinhood and MetaMask users earn yield.

More than half of every stablecoin deposit on Morpho sits under a mandate written by Steakhouse Financial, according to co-founder Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic. The firm's mandates cover more than $4.5 billion in deployments and 48 Morpho vaults on six chains.

## A curator that holds nothing

Steakhouse Financial never holds the money, he says. It writes and enforces the mandate that decides what stablecoin deposits are allowed to lend against. Morpho supplies the lending markets, which he says focus strongly on repo, or borrow-lend, a component he calls necessary for on-chain GDP to be meaningful.

When Stream Finance and Elixir collapsed in late 2025, Steakhouse Financial was the only major curator with zero bad debt across any mandate.

## Mainstream distribution

The Coinbase High Yield Vault that Steakhouse Financial curates sits in the $270 million range. In July the firm became exclusive risk curator for Robinhood Earn, and it is also curating a MetaMask earn integration. Cachinero Vasiljevic notes that a Coinbase customer's main money is already a stablecoin.

## Rates and liquidity

He says DeFi thinks in variable rates because it moves quickly, with atomicity and composability as core strengths. Morpho Midnight is an experiment in fixed rates that will let users configure their term; "We think that this this time, it will work," he says.

He describes Bitcoin-backed loans as deep markets, with 90% of the cbtc market borrowed at equilibrium. High-yield vaults in smaller assets carry a different risk: in stress, depositors may have to wait for the market to rebalance before withdrawing.

## Stablecoins as money

Cachinero Vasiljevic calls stablecoins the digital format for money and compares them to Apple iTunes dollars, which behave like stablecoins but cannot be transferred or seen. He points to telcos in Asia Pacific and Africa as next frontiers. He says there has been no meaningful flight of bank deposits so far, but expects some migration if stablecoins are the better money.

He calls Groove one of the most interesting experiments in DeFi. Its Groove Basin redemption facility for tokenized money market funds, he says, will allow rate arbitrage within 12-second increments.

In Cachinero Vasiljevic's telling, Steakhouse Financial works between consumer apps and Morpho's markets, deciding the risk that stablecoin deposits take. He sees that layer becoming more important as children born today grow up expecting money to be digitally native.

## Key takeaways

1. More than half of every stablecoin deposit on Morpho sits under a Steakhouse Financial mandate, across more than $4.5 billion in deployments and 48 vaults on six chains.
2. Steakhouse Financial curates the Coinbase High Yield Vault, which sits in the $270 million range, and became exclusive risk curator for Robinhood Earn in July.
3. Cachinero Vasiljevic says Morpho Midnight is testing fixed-rate term lending in a DeFi market that defaults to variable rates.

## Transcript

**Zach Fowler** (0:00)

Adrian, thanks for joining the show. Welcome to Stable Ash Live. How's it going? What's going on, man? Hey. How are you guys?

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (0:06)

It's We are pumped. 270,000,000. Not quite 300, but we will get there. I I was 270,000,000.

**Drew Rogers** (0:12)

Okay. Thank you. I was I about that there's a lot of numbers going in, but I I think end of August, it's probably safe to say you'll you'll probably blow past that with with the with the way things have been going. Thanks thank... Thanks for coming on the show. I'm sure it's been a not only busy past year, but especially busy past month. So kind of kind of bring us into the moment. What have you been focusing on? What's the what's the past month been on? Maybe after that, we'll dive into some of your background.

I see you have a really unique chapter that we could we could touch on briefly. But, yeah, tell us what... What's what's the last month been like at Steakhouse?

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (0:49)

Every... Honestly, every month is... Seems to be very hectic at Steakhouse. I'm very grateful for this. I feel like if we're not, you know, spinning plates if we're not spinning 50 plates, we're losing, so it's good to stay active. We had a bunch of high profile launches. The Coinbase high yield vault was a big one. That one's also in the 270,000,000 range. MetaMask announced an earn integration that we are also curating. Mhmm.

And and, obviously, the Robinhood one, which a lot of people have been talking about because it's a major, you know, step into DeFi Yeah. An established finance carrier. So... Yeah.

**Zach Fowler** (1:27)

How how would you describe... Right before the show, we... I... So when I pay myself through the business, just a little fun fact here, I I think I actually just deployed some USDC with the Steakhouse financial integration with Coinbase just, like, a couple hours ago. So what I'm what I'm doing is, like, I'm paying myself to my Coinbase wallet and then waiting for tax time. And so all of the tax kind of bucket is being lent on with stablecoins. And I think I deployed...

It looked like there was, like, an existing integration with Coinbase. Stakehouse just got in. I think it's, like, six or 7%. So I personally just deployed this. Talk talk a little bit about this relationship, and then also, like, how we should be thinking about where steakhouse plays.

**Drew Rogers** (2:13)

I was even gonna say how... You know, we we hear the name steakhouse, but when you hear curator, I think there's some people, like, have a very foggy idea of, like, what does it actually mean to be a curator.

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (2:25)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm obviously very happy to to to hear that. So, you know, thank you for your for using the Vault, and thank you for trusting us. I think it's... Like like, this is a great integration because we we often make reference to it as a sort of best in class way that a traditional finance company can really build products on DeFi rails if you want. Because it's not just the vault. Like, you see the vault as a lender, but if you were a borrower on the other side...

So to every repo market, there are risk seekers and there are safety seekers. And you're taking the safety seeker side. You're lending your capital because you don't need it at the moment. You have an opportunity cost, you wanted to earn something. On the other side of the equation... I stopped sharing.

**Zach Fowler** (3:13)

Back in, I was messing around with sharing this screen. It is funny, you know, Zach, I didn't even put the two and two together having Adrian on today when I was doing this. But, yeah, literally right before the show, I was making some moves on Coinbase and was interacting exactly with this user experience here where you can lend stablecoins directly within the Coinbase app. I... It looks like this is a specific benefit to Coinbase one members, which which I am. We're gonna try to bring back Adrian here.

Let's get him live and try again. That's why you can't hear me. I'm muted.

**Drew Rogers** (3:55)

I was just saying the same thing. I have this tax pool, and it's like it's not earning anything on so far. I was like, I should probably either do this or or open up something in in Robinhood and and get some extra yield here.

**Zach Fowler** (4:10)

Adrian, can you hear us? I'm not seeing his his feed coming in through my side. Yeah. We'll let him refresh one more time. Yeah. The idea of curation is really interesting because you have like... It's it's funny the the theme of these shows, how they just kind of organically all fit together sometimes. Like, you have these really interesting things happening at the application layer where you have companies like Yeah. Western Union, very different approach. Bitget Wallet, very different approach.

Exchanges like Coinbase where there's actually a relationship being created, trust being formed. And then you have the curation layer that's coming in under the hood that is, you know, really providing the sense of of earning, which is a very, very important component to, I think, a lot of these applications as they look to provide future incentive to stick around. I think how Malcolm even said it.

Like, it's not something that they're rolling out right in the beginning, but as they think about their product road map and maturing it and growing it, the idea of introducing earning products and, like, keep your money here, keep your wealth here. And then by doing so, if you stick around, like, you can earn. It's a really compelling offer.

**Drew Rogers** (5:22)

And What's the differences between these two? And and I would love to ask Adrian this. Like, the curation for a core vault and a high yield vault and really, like, what are the differences under the hood? I think for me too, the... I I I'd I'd want to talk to him a little bit about is Morpho Midnight and fixed... Actually, fixed rate yield here. Because I think one of the worst experiences when using apps like this is when one day you're like, wow. The yield's, you know, seven, 8%. This is awesome.

And then you go check it next week, and it's back at three. And you're like, okay. You know, as... Especially as a as a novice user, it's like, what is that? Like, that doesn't happen, you know, in your in your normal bank account app. You may get a email or notification once a year that, hey, your rate's changing. It's going from three and a half percent to three and a quarter. You know? But, like, to see these massive swings, it could feel very, very unsettling. Yeah. No pun intended.

**Zach Fowler** (6:22)

So the key case studies that we're gonna be diving into once we get Adrian back on the stream, Coinbase is a big one. The relationship between steakhouse and Morpho, I think for me is where my confusion starts to surface a little, like the difference between... If we could plot the differences between Steakhouse, Coinbase, and Morpho and the kind of relationship that they all play together, I think that's gonna be a really interesting thing to to uncover. Yeah.

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (6:53)

Well, I think what

**Zach Fowler** (7:04)

She was essentially talking... It's funny how my brain goes to orange. It's exactly what she wanted. There you go. Boom. Talking about the brand. Shout out to Kashy. This seems like exactly what she's looking for as well. Just like thinking through maybe they're talking with with them. But the yield side of her business, she kind of acknowledged like, hey. You know, I'll I'll pull up Kashy here as we talk about it. But she was like It looks like Adrian's almost ready, so just keep that in mind that no

**Drew Rogers** (7:35)

deep thoughts. No long range. You you have you have a company like Cashy,

**Zach Fowler** (7:40)

and a ton of them are are coming to market these really beautiful front end banking products. And part of the huge incentive is cash back earning and, you know, the idea of having a specialization in curation, earning, deploying products like this. It it... You could argue that it really deserves its own layer and its own focus. So Yeah.

**Drew Rogers** (8:02)

Alright. Adrian's back. Let's run it. Alright. Bringing Adrian back.

**Zach Fowler** (8:07)

Adrian We're good?

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (8:08)

I think so. I hope so. Third time lucky. Yeah. I I changed computers. Should be okay now. It's You look I don't know how you guys do... Okay. Okay. If it's good, like, you guys must have

**Zach Fowler** (8:19)

the most stress tolerance for doing a live show. I don't know. You know what? It It's interesting. It used to be way more stressful. I think when you hold thing... Like you're saying, you have all these plates in the air. You do that, like you said, 50 plates in the air. When when you're first getting that up, you know, and something falls, it feels like the end of the world. But as you realize, like, hey. Some plates are falling, and we're still here, and, like, you know, everything's still... It's fine.

It's just the way it is. We've only fried we've only fried a few Mac minis during the live show. We

**Drew Rogers** (8:50)

we were actually talking about... And maybe this is a great segue into, you know, what we were talking about with some of these products. How should people think about a coin base in Robin Hood, a Morpho, and then a Steakhouse? Because we've Yeah. I think we see these. We know that you all work together, you know, to form the... And bring these products to market, but really who does what? What is being powered by Morpho curated by Steakhouse in, you know, Coinbase or Robinhood actually mean?

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (9:18)

Yeah. Maybe the good place to start is the user. Like, Coinbase is a... And Coinbase is another good case study and and another good place to start because people by default have stablecoins. So their their main money in Coinbase is already a stablecoin. And what Morpho and... Together with Morpho and Coinbase, what we've been able to do is create a product that will allow people to earn a yield on those stablecoins. But by operating on a blockchain, you have to...

Like, the the conditions in our view that need to apply are that the the the vault and or the product needs to be fully noncustodial, and it needs to be fully disintermediated in order to be valuable. The alternative for any one of these users on Coinbase is to, whatever, go off Coinbase into a brokerage account or, you know, buy stocks on on Coinbase or or what have you. So in order to be a really compelling product, it has to meet certain criteria. Most important among those criteria are...

It needs to be transparent, needs to be noncustodial, and it needs to not be intermediated in a... In in the way that a traditional financial product might be. What Morpho does well is the the software that runs this. So it's smart contract software. It's a pro... It's a so called protocol, and it sets the rules with which people interact through it. And it and it enforces those rules deterministically. So what that means is that if if the smart contract works well, there is no leakage of value.

It does exactly what it says it will do in a fully deterministic way. And Stakehouse's role in this instance is building a product on top of that software that plugs into Coinbase, but that retains the features that I was describing earlier. So, you know, we're not taking custody. We're not, you know, making discretionary decisions about, you know, stock a, stock b, etcetera. The other benefit of using Morpho is by... It's a very focused product. We like this focus because we think it's a very important one.

Morpho focuses very strongly on repo markets, what we call repo markets or borrow land. It's a foundation of the traditional finance system, and it's... We believe, I think, a necessary component to have a very, very big and very liquid repo market for on chain GDP to be meaningful in the future. And and what this means is that what the vault is technically allocating into are not assets in themselves, but borrow positions if you want.

And the role of the curator is to determine what collateral is accepted for borrowers to take loans against and how to reallocate that liquidity in the most efficient manner so that the market works and clears as efficiently as possible.

**Drew Rogers** (12:07)

How has those assets been evolving? You know, we've... Obviously, this all started with stablecoins. We've seen the launch of BORFO vaults with the Mexican peso. Obviously, Bitcoin, we're seeing the rise of of of other tokenized equities. How is that maybe changing the way that you're looking at the way these vaults are structured? And then I think another interesting layer is now we have Morpho Midnight going from this route where, okay, we say we have these variable rates.

I was telling Drew when you were offstream, you know, it sucks sometimes when you've been in a high yield vault that's at 10%, and it feels like all of a sudden overnight it drops to 5%. You know, I would love to just... Let's just call it even at seven and a half and give me that for a year. So how how do all these start to intermingle and work together, and and how do you approach us as a curator? Say, like, what products, what vaults do we need to go out and build?

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (12:58)

Yeah. I mean, for now, obviously, it's still very... Well, DeFi in general is very primed to think in variable term rates. So Morpho Midnight is an ex... Is an experiment. People have tried fixed rates in the past. We think that this this time, it will work. But at a baseline, it will have to change the behavior of DeFi users to expect X rates. The reason people think in variable rate terms is because DeFi moves extremely quickly.

When you have some atomicity and when you have composability, these are two very, very strong value propositions for operating on chain because they mean that you can combine products that previously would have been very expensive or difficult to combine, and you can do it very quickly. The effect of that is that repo markets are, by default, variable, and people expect single block liquidity for almost everything.

And in fact, a lot of the times, you know, when people when people don't pay attention to asset liability management, then things go wrong very quickly in DeFi precisely because it is so quick. And so fixed rates is an evolution of this... A well kind of evolution in our view that tries to put in a term structure to borrow to loans in DeFi. So instead of saying, I'm gonna lend to you at twelve second increments block by block, I am...

I'm going to be okay with my liquidity being locked up for a month or three months. And in return, I will accept a fixed rate for that period through using... Through essentially issuing what's functionally like a zero coupon bond. So you're buying, you know, a $100 in three months for less, something like this.

**Zach Fowler** (14:39)

The the use case that Zach and I at least really resonated with, I Zach was bringing me on the side as I shared my tax earning bucket strategy, like, is... The idea of saying... Because in my mind, when I'm doing this, I'm saying, I know I'm gonna need to probably, you know, pay pay tax eventually, but I have this really interesting window that exists until that point where those funds are owed. And in that window, I can earn. But for me, I I...

The the feeling I subconsciously had as a user using this Coinbase product this morning was when it's time to pay, am I gonna get it... Am I gonna be able to take these out in that moment so that April 15 or whatever it is for you, I'm gonna have liquidity and, like, access? One, like, where does the complexity live there, and are there products or customizable ways to say, you know, I want this loan. I'm gonna hold it until April 15 on tax day at that time. Like, I'm indicating that I will plan to remove this.

What do you think about that? Is that... Am I thinking too far ahead, or is that possible right now? No. No. So that's definitely possible with more for midnight.

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (15:49)

That will be possible with more for midnight. You will be able to configure your term if you want. We're very interested to see how... So similar to how treasury auctions... Treasury auctions also happen in in window and, like, blocks of time, and they tend to concentrate liquidity around certain dates. And so in theory, on, you know, when the treasury option has run and you can trade them, in theory, you can buy them at any point, but they tend to have more liquidity at certain dates.

And we expect there to be a similar concentration of liquidity around some random convention. Could be the first of the month, the last of the month, fifteenth of the month, like, whatever. But just people silently agree with each other to say, like, I... Instead of trying to make a market every single day of the week, all the time, let's just wait until the fifteenth. Do it then, and everybody does it then. So there's the most amount of liquidity, and then we grow it for a month.

And so you'll have to, like, take into account these type... These emergent market structures that appear from the interaction of users on chain. For the variable rate stuff, our our view, like, our theory of risk in variable rate markets is that it's mostly around liquidity. So if you take something like a a Bitcoin backed loan, CVBTC to USDC, this is a very, very deep market.

There's a lot of people that are willing to borrow, and there's a lot of people that are willing to lend, and there's a lot of people that want to liquidate, which de facto means it's... You know, even though 90% of... In theory, 90 up... 90% of equilibrium of the CBTCUSTC market is borrowed in it at any given time, It's so large that vaults are a subset of that. And even if they...

You know, even if you had a significant position and you were trying to withdraw it, the effect of liquidating positions would mean that you would very quickly recover the liquidity within that market. That's just because BTC is a very big asset on chain. If you take a much smaller asset, something like Athena, we would categorize this more as high yield. Chill, mainly, principally, I mean, there's obviously credit risk and market risk and so forth, but, like, one of the big drivers is the...

This market is just smaller than the Bitcoin one. And so there may be instances in periods of high stress where if you are lending into a high yield vault, you may find it difficult to withdraw because other people have withdrawn before you. And so you may have to wait for the market to rebalance, yeah, which may take up an hour or two or eight. Interesting. Yeah.

**Zach Fowler** (18:28)

But in return, you get the benefit of, you know, slightly higher rates or what you would expect to be slightly higher rates to Question... Selfish question for our amazing friends over at Agora as I'm looking at the term option here. Like, what is unique from Steakhouse's perspective and a stablecoin like AUSD? Like, what is what is so great about working with Agora in this maybe term unlevered direct exposure? How do you as a curator think about what Agora's building versus some of these other things?

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (18:59)

We don't... We're stablecoin maximalists, so we love the Agora product, and we love all stablecoins. And in our view, there should be as many as possible because it's the interaction between them that creates an interesting market. It would be very sad if we had one stablecoin for everybody. There would be far less trading activity, and that would be sad. It would be worse economically for Yeah. Market players. Now I've got it as interesting because it has a... Sorry, John.

**Zach Fowler** (19:25)

It's very Ben Milne of you. And you and Ben Milne need a a grab a drink or something and enjoy stablecoins are for everybody.

**Drew Rogers** (19:32)

I was just saying, you know, when you talk about, like, okay. Great. These markets are formed, and now we have the, you know, the... These yield opportunities. What is your vision for, you know, the the financial markets in ten, fifteen, twenty years? Like, do you... Are there vaults in bank accounts? Are vaults completely isolated from bank accounts? I think you had an interesting part in, like, a CoinDesk interview where you were talking about that your daughter may never need to open a bank account into her life.

So, like, help paint that picture for us. You know, does... Do Vault... Do you want Vault to completely replace savings? Is this... They have their specific use case. What's your vision for the world?

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (20:12)

Yeah. That's... The the context of this was, yeah, something similar, like the... You know, Oliver Acuna was asking me, like, what the journey or, like, what the, you know, trajectory was. I'm thinking about it. I... Yeah. So the relevant context was I was born in 1989, which means I remember the before times, you know, before the Internet. And so I remember, like, going out and playing this with sticks in the garden and stuff. But for people that were born after, the Internet is a part of their daily life.

And, you know, going on to Roblox and hanging out with their mates, that's just that's just life for them in a way that I can't actually intuitively understand because I didn't have that experience. So kids that are being born today are going to have a digitally native expectation for how money works. And in our view, stablecoins are just the digital format for money, full stop. They're, you know, faster, cheaper, transparent. Like, every reason you could think of that they're...

That just makes them the superior way of exchanging money and using it. So I expect that in the future, you know, if, you know, my daughter wants to, whatever, buy a candy or a movie ticket or what have you, her expectation will be like, okay. You know, do I open my rope? Can I can I use my Roblox wallet, or can I use my Uh-huh? Whatever wallet and, you know, what stake points do I have? What tokens do I have?

**Drew Rogers** (21:40)

And That would be just be enough. Very... That would be a very interesting study, with, like, this this Gen Z and Neo Hunter population. Like, how much money do you actually hold in the Fortnite, the Roblox? Again Yep. You know, I think we even we even interviewed... Drew, do you remember Playtron? They're doing the digital master. Yep. For for gaming. And it's like, what are these things that are holding value? You know, Alvin had this this statement from BiggetWallet previously.

It just, you know, you wanna be able to trade where you bank or bank where you trade, and you want to have... When your funds are somewhere, you just want access to them. You don't wanna have to move them and and switch them.

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (22:17)

Think of a Like a

**Zach Fowler** (22:20)

a Trust the future.

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (22:21)

The the user trusts each of these places separately for different reasons, and they hold different balances of value across these different platforms. Today, those are largely incompatible, and they don't speak to each other. And these are siloed. So Roblox dollars or iTunes... An iTunes dollar is a private money like liability issued by Apple Inc that nobody wants to call a stablecoin, but is... De facto behaves like a stablecoin. It's just one that you can't transfer, you can't use, you can't see, you can't...

Obvious thing in our view is that eventually, it's not that Apple may one day use stablecoins in in iTunes. It's just that if you want to trans... If one day you will want to transfer dollars from iTunes to Roblox, the stablecoin is... Seems like the easiest, cheapest, and, you know, fastest way to do that in in the back end. So they will... If they... You know, it will have a user facing function, and it will have a back end facing function. What that makes is...

I don't really have a clear view, but our view is that clearly stablecoins are the digital underpinning of how money will move in the future.

**Zach Fowler** (23:31)

Zach, last question from from my side at least. So, Adrian, when we... You know, I'm I'm looking at the the website products for the stable coin economy. It's one, really great to meet you because I feel like we have so many incredible conversations on this show with builders who are probably also looking at this website, and they're kind of... They're building applications. They're... You were about to meet another...

An awesome builder, Axel Ash Ahmed, from from that building a, you know, application layer product. Who are you ultimately most excited when looking at... Like, if if I were to say, hey. We have five awesome introductions to make to to Steakhouse. What are these types of builders that you want to be engaging you guys most and working with most? I know you have... You said a lot of plates in the air. Is it more of these, like, Robinhoods, Coinbases, more of the kind of trading use cases?

Speak a little bit about what you're seeing.

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (24:35)

Yeah. I think, obviously, selfishly, commercially, we we are the... We would obviously look for, you know, fintechs, neobanks, that sort of thing, just because, narrowly, they are typically the ones that are the most crypto adjacent and looking to build stablecoin based products. But more from, like, a general interest perspective, you know, how to expect, like, you know, first, who would you have dinner with in the world? I think Yeah. You know, the the chairman of the federal.

I would have I would have a very good conversation with Christina Galvin with the chairman of Federal Reserve about stablecoins because they... I think that they would have heard different opinions, and I would have an argument with at least one of them.

And then telcos in Asia Pacific and Africa, I think, would be the next one as sort of digital frontiers where there isn't necessarily such a well developed financial transfer ecosystem where stablecoins are making headway and where I think it could be the most, ironically, the most mature market to develop these types of safeguarding products for.

**Zach Fowler** (25:39)

Because Did you happen to see the news from SphereNet? We were reporting on this at the top of the show, the telecom company Deutsche Telekom. I can pull up this news, but it's interesting because this is the first big use case, not in those two markets, but it looks like mostly in Latin America is where at least this this... Did you see that news? Why why why does a company like this really wanna get involved here? What's unique about them? I think the...

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (26:08)

For telcos, it's it's it's... Again, it's a type of information transmission that interacts with money, and stablecoins seem like an obvious way of facilitating the, at a minimum, the clearing underneath all of the money exchanges that happen at the token level. You know?

And this is obviously a very relevant example, but there are other examples of stablecoin to mobile minute conversions in Africa, for example, that facilitate remittance payments or, you know, saving solutions for people in local currencies that want to... That they exit those and the whole dollars. It seems like one of those technologies that has very strong popularity with users. It's very cheap to get to a very wide range of last mile users, and stablecoins are sort of perfect for that type of an environment.

In particular, when the, you know, customer acquisition costs are lowered for bringing new users on. Because you... With one tower, you can cover, you know, thousands of people. Yeah. Adrian, question. So you mentioned that, you know, we're actually...

**Drew Rogers** (27:19)

In the next few weeks with Movement, we're doing a a MoveMe session where it's going to be healthy debates for the industry. You mentioned that you would wanna have some of these conversations with regulators and have very... A very passionate conversation about stablecoins. What topics right now, from your perspective, do do we kinda need to to hash out even within the industry and even kinda branching out?

What are the kind of some of these more sometimes divisive topics that you think more conversations need to be had around?

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (27:50)

Yeah. One of the biggest one of the biggest anxieties in at least the central banking space, maybe not so much the regulator space is the degree to which stablecoins compete with commercial bank deposits. Mhmm. This is a very big... You know, this is a reasonable anxiety to have because if commercial bank deposits withdraw, then credit activity contracts, and that's generally worse for the economy. But we would take the view that you can build a perfectly functional credit ecosystem with Sablecoins.

It just happens to be one where the balance sheet is disintermediated, and you have that activity taking place elsewhere and more driven by the interaction between the lender and the borrower rather than having a a central party, a bank, you know, writing mortgages. So we're much less, you know, anxious about this. Certainly, we haven't seen... You know, empirically, we haven't seen any meaningful flight of balance sheets from banks to stablecoins.

A lot of it does seem to just be net new or marginal or marginal at the net when, you know, when you try... When you pull out the outflows from the inflows into the banking system. So there does not seem to be a... An actual outflow today. But, you know, if our theory is correct and stablecoins are a better way using money, we would... We should eventually expect some outflows or migration from deposits to SIBLE coins. I think the more...

The most the most interesting possible world is one where you have sort of both, you know, tokenized... This is where tokenized bank deposits might come into play, where the tokenized bank deposit is still a bank deposit, but it's at least on the same settlement layer as a stablecoin, and the two can interact more fluidly with each other. And I feel like this would be a positive evolution that would keep sort of both ecosystems interplaying with each other, you know, a bit more dynamically and with a bit less risk.

**Drew Rogers** (29:52)

We ask you transition, but I do have one last question. I'm sorry, Drew. I can't help it. Is this No. I'm done. I already used my last question coupon. This is mine. Is this where Grove starts to fit in? Because I'm just I'm just kind of been reading it and trying to figure out where this fits into the conversation. I mean, Grove saying it's a new star.

The Sky ecosystem focuses on building institutional grade credit protocol designed to facilitate credit creation, seamless to move yield in and out of the on chain economy. Is is this one form factor that you're thinking through for, you know, what you were just talking about with stablecoins versus bank deposits?

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (30:27)

Yes. Definitely. Groove is one of the most interesting experiments in in DeFi that I think more people should be talking about. It's a star in the sky universe, which means it's... It has simplistically, it has the ability to borrow from the Sky balance sheet. This is interesting because the Sky balance sheet is a... Is another stablecoin in its own right. So people hold and use USDS, and they save with it. They, you know, transact with it, what have you.

And Grove has the ability to borrow up to a limit from from the balance sheet in order to allocate it for a spread. And it cannot just allocate those assets into, like, credit investments, which is one way of spurring that amount of credit, but it can also build products like Grove Basin that plug into the rest of DeFi in order to turbocharge its growth and to make them, you know, sort of capitalize on the growth that it enables. Grove Basin is a redemption facility for tokenized money market funds.

We were talking earlier about how liquid DeFi is and, you know, overcollateralized Bitcoin loans. Today in DeFi, overcollateralized Bitcoin loans are the de facto risk free asset. They are not risk... Without being re... Without being risk free, they are the de facto proxy for a risk free asset because they are the most liquid instrument on chain. And this is with BlackRock having a money market fund on chain. And the reason is the liquidity.

The reason we don't have a stable SOFR rate on chain is because it's very difficult to move from fiat to on chain. And what Grove Basin does is provide a settlement financing facility for tokenized asset issuers that will make redemption... Subscription and redemption for money market funds instantaneous in line with the fund.

And we think this is a game changer more in the sort of market structure level because you will finally be able to do our rate arbitrage with money market funds within twelve second increments. These are... Like, today, if you look at the, quote, unquote, risk free rate, it's very noisy around surfer. We expect this to completely flatten and stabilize. And this is a precondition in our view for

**Drew Rogers** (32:45)

creating a a healthy repo and financial ecosystem on chain. This is probably the worst question to end our interview with because now I'm, like, fighting the urge to go deep into many interesting cans right now. We can't even be able to see. This is a call. We met with David from Lotus Protocol, and we kinda talked about... And I started ideating on, like, a master class session to really dive deep into the workings of these products. So maybe this is a... This will be one of our...

You know, we could pilot this with you. Would be great to to really more whiteboard and really dive deep into this ecosystem and how it works and and what it changes. Sure.

**Zach Fowler** (33:21)

Yeah. I can talk for hours about stablecoins for anybody who can tolerate that. Yeah. Oh, well, you you found a place on the Internet where you're more than welcome. So we would love we would love to have you back, continue learning from you. Yeah, there's there's so much here, as you know. I mean, we didn't even touch on your background at Goldman and and kind of the the hops and the journey.

So we'll we'll have to have you back and, yeah, continue to uncover some of the thinking behind how you're building steakhouse, how it goes to market, and would love would love to keep thinking through ways to support you guys. It's really interesting

**Adrian Cachinero Vasiljevic** (33:53)

what you're doing. So Appreciate that. Yeah. Anytime. Yeah. It's a pleasure meeting you guys.

**Drew Rogers** (33:58)

Cool. Thanks, Adrian. We'll have you back soon. Thanks, Adrian. Ciao.