# Agora wins conditional OCC approval for a national trust bank after a year of work

Stabledash Live, a Stabledash show. Oct 14, 2026. Nick Van Eck.
https://live.stabledash.com/shows/the-live-show/episodes/agora-just-got-approved-by-the-occ-heres-why-companies-are-FAnDoO2t564

CEO Nick van Eck says the charter turns Agora from a stablecoin issuer into a one-stop shop for enterprises that were waiting for US regulatory clarity.

Agora received conditional approval from the OCC on Friday to organize Agora National Trust Bank, CEO Nick van Eck said. He described the approval as about a year's worth of work behind the scenes, starting after the company completed its Series A last year. In his view, the company had 12-18 months to become a federal bank, which he called a tremendous amount of work.

## From issuer to platform

Van Eck says the charter will move Agora from being just a stablecoin issuer, where third parties build on its token, to offering the one-stop shop where companies can build their business and soon run it on the platform. The economic model stays the same: "we share the revenue. There's zero off ramp fees." He describes Agora as a technology layer rather than a lender taking balance sheet risk, saying it is "just delivering, like, a better settlement technology."

The company is also moving its office from Jersey City to the Financial District in New York within the next month.

## Customers waiting on clearance

According to van Eck, a number of providers, ranging from publicly traded companies to the Fortune 25 and Fortune 50, have been waiting for Agora to get US approval, with announcements expected in the coming weeks and months. Telecoms working with Iris already log into Agora and use USDI, which Agora built for them. He says Veeva Bolivia will have 2,000,000 plus daily active users once USDI fully rolls out.

Insomniac, part of Live Nation, is set to use RAIN and other loyalty programs. Van Eck notes that Live Nation alone had 159,000,000 event attendees last year, compared with about 39,000,000 wallets holding over $10 in stablecoins. He believes 90 to 95% of the market has been waiting for regulation.

## The size of the prize

Van Eck says the big prize is being one of the five to 10 global multi-utility liquid issuers, in a $16 trillion plus eurodollar market. He points to idle balances as a target, noting the average US checking account has earned about seven basis points over the past twenty years. Stablecoin B2B payments grew eight x from 2024 to $226 million last year, he says, yet remain one basis point of global volume.

## What he got wrong

Van Eck admits he did not think the GENIUS Act would pass, and now calls it "one of the most important pieces of banking legislation in American history." Adoption came faster than he expected, bringing new competition. He says Stripe buying Bridge was not on his bingo card and changed competitive dynamics.

Van Eck's case is that the regulatory shift has arrived and the enterprise market came with it. He predicts stablecoin neobanks as a segment will keep growing, though he rejects the idea of one for every vertical. He bets Agora can win with shared revenue, zero off-ramp fees and a bank charter rather than with lending.

## Key takeaways

1. Agora received conditional approval from the OCC to organize Agora National Trust Bank, which Nick van Eck says took about a year of work after its Series A.
2. Van Eck says the charter moves Agora from a stablecoin issuer to a one-stop shop, built on zero off-ramp fees and shared revenue.
3. He says stablecoins were only one basis point of $1.6 quadrillion in global B2B payments last year and would need to grow 7000x to take the whole market.

## Chapters

- 0:00 Agora wins conditional OCC approval for a national trust bank
- 2:03 The charter lets Agora serve the US market from New York
- 4:01 The charter adds wallets, transactions and advisory to the stablecoin
- 8:25 The goal is to be a top global multi-utility issuer
- 11:00 Custody providers are partners more than direct competitors
- 13:26 Idle cash earning nothing is the main target market
- 15:42 A trust bank avoids balance sheet risk, unlike lending banks
- 18:27 Large enterprises are adopting stablecoins across many use cases
- 23:45 Not every vertical needs its own stablecoin neobank
- 26:38 Wrong on GENIUS passing and on how fast adoption came
- 28:42 Hosts close with upcoming events and future episodes

## Transcript

**Nick Van Eck** (0:00)

The new core

**Drew Rogers** (0:03)

for the next era of finance.

**Zach Fowler** (0:18)

We got Nick Van Eck here joining us, CEO, cofounder of Agora. Nick, man, this is this is so exciting. When when I ran into you at dinner, this was like, okay. Something's coming up. We got a couple weeks left, I think. Tell us about I know. The good news.

**Nick Van Eck** (0:33)

And we got it slotted in perfectly. So I'm very happy about that. But, yes, we received conditional approval from the OCC on Friday to organize, you know, a National Trust Bank, so Agora National Trust Bank. And it's, you know, just a great milestone in our journey and really will enable us to take our product suite to the next level. So this has been about a year's worth of work behind the scenes.

So we completed our our series a last year, and in the middle of the close of that round, genius passed, which I think was a surprise, not just to us, but to a lot of the industry. And, you know, obviously, that led to a lot of pushback. Since then, I think we've seen a little bit of of that in in clarity. And we decided to face this really head on.

And and, you know, it is our view that we had twelve to eighteen months to become a federal bank, which is a tremendous amount of of work, but really is gonna move us from being just a a a stablecoin issuer where third parties build on our stablecoin to offer the one stop shop. Right? So now companies can come to us and build their business on Agora, but also we'll be able to run their business, you know, in the Agora platform as well soon.

And so we have a number of website and comms updates that'll be coming over the next couple months, but we're excited to get the bank live as soon as possible.

**Drew Rogers** (2:03)

Yeah. There's a few angles I wanna take this, but the biggest thing I wanna ask, because I saw this in a few tweets, was like, Agora's coming home. Like, yours... You know, you... I think I think you're in New York, and there's obviously been this tension of, hey. We're building this company. We have these roots in The US, yet I can't really build for The US market. Like, what what does it feel like to, you know, to be coming home and to to actually serve the market that you're rooted in?

Less subway It's rides huge. To... From New Jersey.

**Nick Van Eck** (2:30)

Yeah. We... Know, we're moving the office from Jersey City to to Fi Dye in the next, you know, month now. So that's very exciting is, you know, Drew has been to the Jersey City office. Yeah. For us, it's... Yeah. Our network is here. Right? You know, I'm from I'm from New York. Our, you know, our whole leadership team is in New York and comes from many different New York based companies. And now we can serve The US market, Which you know, has really, you know, been a hindrance for us. Right?

You know, when we started the company too, what I'd like to call out is like how much has changed like in the last 2.5? When we started the company, you know, OCP two point o was like still fully in in effect. It was really challenging for businesses to just even get bank accounts. And so we started offshore, you know, in large part also because the market really is offshore. But that changed very quickly. And with Genius, stablecoins became legitimized as a better way to move money and store dollars.

And so we wanted to come and and and meet that market and have been working with a number of, you know, providers that are... You know, have been waiting sort of on us to get US approval, and we're excited to announce some of those in the coming weeks and months. And those range, you know, from publicly traded companies to, you know, the, you know, Fortune 25, Fortune 50.

**Zach Fowler** (3:50)

Yeah. Zach, you you... I know you have a vision a vision for where you wanna go here, so I'll I'll

**Drew Rogers** (3:57)

No. Go go for it. Get I get one good ping pong. So,

**Zach Fowler** (4:01)

I mean, Agora and you personally, I just you... You're in such a unique position because I think you you see so many different use cases of builders and entrepreneurs who are coming to Agora, they're like, hey. You know, it definitely makes sense for us to have a stablecoin or our own dollar backed asset somewhere in the platform.

We just spoke with Iris and Jules from from, you know, what they're building, and it's so exciting to be in this moment where I think people are starting to really understand the economic benefit of doing that. How... From your from your perspective, like, today, AUST, fully reserved dollar stablecoin without this charter and without this approval, what what really changes or what really gets added to to the feature set when this goes through that wasn't possible today?

Obviously, like, being able to serve certain markets like The US is huge. But for for the builders listening, what is now now unlocked functionally that you're really excited about?

**Nick Van Eck** (5:06)

Yeah. We've always had had the view of building the one stop shop. The reason that we started with the stablecoin is because we wanted to really control the economics, like the most important economics that builders care about, which is earning float, you know, revenue on the stablecoins on their on their platform, and then the on and off ramp fees. The biggest issue when we started the business is that none of the large stablecoin issuers shared revenue, and they charge agree... Egregious off ramp fees.

And, like, that's not tenable for traditional enterprises that wanna build on chain. Right? And I think you probably heard, you know, you know, some of that from from Jules earlier. Right? The reason they came to us is that we've experienced doing this. We share the revenue. There's zero off ramp fees. But with now, with the Charter, what we can really do is is be that one stop shop. So you don't have to go to Fireblocks to figure out wallets. You don't have to go get tax, you know, software.

You don't have to get, like, re... You know, build your own leisure. We now give that to you out of the box where, okay, you need, you know, wallets. You need the stable coin. You need transactions. Like, we can deliver this, you know, completely out of the box for you. And then you can also use Agora as your home base. Right? So with Iris, the telecoms are logging... You know, they... Not only are they using U S... USDI that we, you know, we built for them, but they're logging into Agora.

They create an Agora account and sending, receiving, earning rewards. That all happens in Agora. And so that's really what's changed is we've really moved now beyond just like a stablecoin issuer to wallet, stablecoin, transaction based services. We'll offer investment advisory services as well and treasury management. And so our goal is to onboard, you know, the next generation of companies that are coming on chain. And one thing I'd... I, you know, I wanna call out too is I I I posted this last week.

Just like I was late at night looking. Was like, wonder like how many, like, stablecoin wallets above $10 like there actually are. And I guess, you know, kudos to the Allium, you know, team for helping with this, but there's about 39,000,000 wallets with over $10 in stablecoins. So maybe like, I don't know, we have like three to 5,000,000 users on chain. You know, with Veeva Bolivia alone, right, when we fully roll out USDI to them, that's 2,000,000 plus, like, daily active users.

And so very quickly, I think we're going to start Wow. Driving these stablecoin user numbers much higher. There was another, you know, announcement at the Avalanche Summit last week where Insomniac, which is part of Live Nation, is, you know, going to be using, you know, RAIN and and some other loyalty programs. Well, there needs to be a stable coin behind that. Right? And if, you know, 7,000,000 plus attendees, Live Nation alone last year had a 159,000,000 event attendees.

And so what we're really excited about when we go live with the bank is, you know, not only being able to serve, you know, a much broader surface area of these enterprises, but really help scale the numbers and adoption of of stables. That's where I think 90 to 95% of of the market really is. And it's sort of been waiting for regulation, and and now it's here, and people are ready to go.

**Drew Rogers** (8:24)

Mhmm. Nego, I wanna unpack, and I I love this quote of the the be the medal or lose. I think that's really your... The the key framing of being the one stop shop. But, also, you know, what is your larger vision for Gorja's role in embedded finance, especially when you look about some of the

**Drew Rogers** (8:53)

Yeah. It is a really good name. I was like... But I didn't wanna say it and be like, oh, no. We don't say that, but makes sense. And, like, you know, with AUSD as the deposit token powering these premium vaults while on the other hand, you know, being the stable or powers kinda insert x y z use case.

So, like, really, how do we think about this world of of embedded finance, and kinda where do these two worlds start collide of of, you know, powering vaults on chain and and also bringing these, you know, traditional traffic companies on chain with with these toolings?

**Nick Van Eck** (9:25)

Yeah. I think, you know, to me, what the really big prize is is being one of, like, the five to 10 global multi utility liquid issuers. And, you know, there is a $16,000,000,000,000 plus euro dollar market to go after. I think USCC, you know, Circle, and Tether both have really strong footholds in different niches, but this is, like, just the beginning.

And so, you know, the reason why we wanna work with with folks like Jules and and Iris is because we think we can deliver them the one stop shop solution, and they, you know, believe that. Right? And and we are the best the best service provider for them. And we think we'll drive tremendous growth there. Right? But that's like a closed source ecosystem. With Bitwise and and, you know, a lot of the activity that we have in DeFi, we can provide, you know, the same value. It's just a different type of customers. Right?

And so, you know, why does Bitwise love us? Right? We're regulated. We have no, you know, off ramp fees, which is really important if you're building tokenized products on chain.

And so, you know, it's really our core beliefs, right, which is sharing the economics with partners, having no on and off ramp fees, being regulated that makes us such a great fit for all these different types of use cases, where really the end business wants to either monetize the balances on their platform or have lower costs of using stablecoins. And so, you know, Drew pointed this out at the beginning. Right?

We've touched so many different things, And I think our core value properly resonates with with a lot of different participants in the market, and I guess, you know, the people at Stripe and, you know, OpenUSD agreed.

**Zach Fowler** (11:00)

I'm wondering how you see consolidation may not be the right word, but I I think in our minds as, like, industry natives, we've seen a lot of these categories be standalone because of the lack of clarity we've had, where you have, like, issuance, custody, on and off ramps, compliance, like transaction monitoring, all these different things are kind of like happy standalone focuses, advisory and and asset management, stuff like this.

It seems like from your perspective, with the approval, all of this becomes, like, fair game, a one stop shop. How are you thinking about the maybe advantage that Agora has being more of that, like, stablecoin focused history? Like, what what advantage does that provide you guys versus maybe a Fireblocks or defense or more of the, like, custody route or people who've really specialized in that? Do you see more of that winner take all environment where everyone's just gonna start to, like, do everything?

Or will it continue to feel pretty... Like, we're all using each other, and whoever wins the customer wins?

**Nick Van Eck** (12:07)

Yeah. I think at the end of the day, there's a lot of synergies. You know, we use some of the the providers that you mentioned. Right? And it's not like direct competition. Sometimes it's a little bit of coopetition, but it's a very large market. Like, you know, what I would what I would say, you know, for example, is while we might be a fit for an enterprise or a fintech that just wants to have embedded financial products in their platform, we're not gonna give you the same con...

You know, controls that a bank would want. Right? And, you know, which is why they might choose a Fireblocks or a TFNS. Right? And so I think where we really, you know, wanted to lean in was on being the money. Because, like, we view that as being extremely strategically important for winning a specific segment of customers. Right? Where they need simple policies and control. They just need simple custody. And what they're really looking to do is monetize their platforms. Right?

Or have, you know, improved improved cost basis. Right? And so, like, that's where we really come in. And and it's it's not really, like, you know, competing direct with with some of these providers. And in many cases, we, like, we we resell them. Or if we think they're a good fit, we'll say, like, hey. We like, you know, the DFNS guys or something. You should meet with them. Got it. Really cool.

**Drew Rogers** (13:26)

I wanna unpack, like, use cases and, like, when we think about embedded. Loyalty is is a theme that's been, you know, getting brought up more and more. But when when you when you think about, like, hey. Let's just, like, fast forward six months. I hope it doesn't take six months, but, look, we know things don't move fast. Like, this conditional OCC approval, all of this is wrapped up. You're live in The US. Who are the people that, like, you wanna just kick the doors down? You're like, hey.

You you need to get on board. Like, this is the use case that is prime. It's ripe. You need to move fast.

**Nick Van Eck** (13:58)

And, like, what do you... What what digital transformations do you wanna be in the center of in the next So I I think it's I think it's environments where there's a lot of stored value or cash in a bank where you're earning nothing, which is unfortunately a very large part of the market. But it's a great opportunity for us. Right? I actually... You know, GSR debuted, like, a new show that I did with Frank a month back, and they asked you to bring on a chart.

And, like, the chart that I brought on was checking account rates over the last twenty years, and it's, like, average is, like, seven basis points. And so the... Like, the funny thing is too, like, in in six months or twelve months, you know, we could have, like, you know, your local HVAC company that just wants to earn more on their checking account balance use Agora for their business. Right? Because we will deliver them a better rewards experience. Right?

And something that feels like it's prime for the twenty first century. But for us, it's, you know, where are you... Is... Are dollars at rest where they're not earning things? Where are there environments where it takes long to send and receive money? And then there's a numb... You know, there's so many, like, different, you know, use cases that pop up too with credit, where we're working with a bunch of credit providers. Right?

Because as part of the trust bank, we do not offer credit ourselves, so we wanna build a credit marketplace. And maybe they use AUST as their disbursement. Right? And why is that? Because they have better economics. They have no off ramp fees for their customers. Maybe if we have the wallets in the bank account and the customer, we can give them better data. So there's a lot of really interesting things that we're now gonna be able to do because we have this this one stop shopping platform. And, like, it's just...

The last year has been a lot of work, and a lot of things have been built under the hood. And we're very excited for it to to go live and to come to market with it.

**Zach Fowler** (15:42)

What is the difference between the OCC approval for the... I get some of these confused specifically. The federally chartered National Trust Bank versus

**Nick Van Eck** (15:55)

the charter that would allow you to do credit? Like, what is the difference there? And how are you thinking about that? There's like the full chartered banks. Right? So think like Arabor, Augustus. I think Open Reserve is another one, where, like, their core business is really lending. Right? Yeah. And, like, you would Paint the picture between this and and that. I think, like, understanding those differences. Right now, we actually just welcomed Augustus as a sponsor of the show.

Like, how are these things different, and where where are the winners of both of those gonna do... What are they gonna do best side by side? Yeah. Good question. Yes. So they're all doing, like, slightly different things. But, like, how I I break it down, right, is that they're all... They're a core business all lending. Right? It's taking deposits and then lending it out and monetizing it. Right? That's that's their core business.

I think they are all, you know, are focused on different niches and customer segments. My understanding is also, like, I think Open Reserve is, you know, offering a a larger variety of different products. But, like, their core business is lending. They get, like, valued on, like, you know, ROE, and that's it. For us, right, you know, we are not able to... You know, we don't take deposits ourselves. We'll actually use another bank under the hood for fiat deposits because I don't wanna compete on, like, fiat banking.

Like, I didn't think that was, like, an interesting area for us to compete, nor did I wanna get valued like a bank or take balance sheet risk. That's the difference. Right? We're not really taking balance sheet risk, whereas those banks are. And so they're inherently more risky. Mhmm. With us, right, we are the stablecoin issuer, but really like a technology layer. And so that's what we are trying to compete on is, like, delivering innovation across stablecoins.

What you can do with stablecoins, how they can enable you to better monetize your business and have more efficient capital mobility. That's, like, where we're really focused. And then there... There's some of these other trust charters that I think are focused on different things. Like, I think Katina just got approved. It seems like they're focused on, you know, AI and AI agents. That's something that we could do pretty easily. It's like, you know, just RBAC and, you know, add agent...

You you know, give agents the RBAC capabilities that you give humans and, like, have that be a category. But it's not really, who we're focused on. Right? You know, I'm gonna be flying next week, you know, to to meet with a very large commodity producer. You know, we're really focused on, like, the large scale enterprises, and that's that's the market that we're excited about. Yeah.

**Zach Fowler** (18:27)

Since you since you brought this up and and we just had Iris on, are there any... What... For me, it's like the most exciting time to be doing this show because we're we're kind of... In some ways, there's part of me that is sad that, like, the infrastructure narrative, like, the tech for tech's sake is kind of dying. It is so fun to, like, nerd out about all the differences on the tech side, which we have done on this show.

But personally, it's like the go to market mind that I have is, like, talking with folks like Jules from Iris is so energizing because you're like, finally, we have

**Nick Van Eck** (19:01)

everything we need. Crypto anymore.

**Zach Fowler** (19:03)

Yeah. It's like Oh, man. It's like we actually can go as a media business too. Right? Like, go cover these businesses. Like, what a fun opportunity looking into the New Year to go say, like, what would it look like to go, you know, make a little mini doc? With tools and make a documentary about it. Yeah. So fun. And, like, for your... From your vantage point, again, which I really appreciate, are there any of these... Like, the telco use case was really interesting?

Like, any interesting, maybe unexpected or not what you expected go to market opportunities that you see with where the balances live and, like, where you see stablecoins really being like, oh my god. I would have never expected anything come to mind It's

**Nick Van Eck** (19:46)

everywhere, and this is, like, why I, like, I love this company. It's, like, it's just all... Like, like, so, like, intellectually stimulating and fun. You know, you know, on the one hand, we're working with telecom companies, and then the other, you know, we're working with some of the largest, you know, commodity businesses in the world, you know, to prevent... Potentially create new markets. Right? That's kinda all I'll share on that. But, like, it's not like small...

You know, it's not like the small guys anymore crypto. It is the Fortune 25 and really, you know, the largest companies in the world that are starting to think about these things. Right? And it can be things like international payroll, treasury management, vendor payments. Right? We are money, and so we touch, like, everything. And you do need to be focused in, like, the products that you offer and the services that you provide.

But ultimately, we're, you know, the infrastructure layer, which I think is also, like, even more important in this AI era. Right? As you get headless, like, that's why you gotta be the metal. Right? Because, like, one of the... And I don't know if if Jules got in too with you, but, like, one of the longer term visions for them is to really, like, just build an entire platform on Agora. Right? So, like, today, like, their enterprises are logging in. They use the Agora platform.

But eventually, you know, with some of these modules, it'll just be completely built on Agora, and we'll be behind the scenes. And, like, that's awesome. Right? It's like, again, an example that I like to use is Venmo. Right? Because, like, no one... Like, you know, most people... Most consumers, you know, don't know how Venmo works, but you used it because of the solution that it delivered for you, which was the ability to send money to your friends instantly.

And we are helping enable, like, a plethora of use cases, whether it's, you know, from a, you know, trading to just simply embedding dollars in your telecom app to helping earn rewards on stored value cars. Like, there's a there's a lot

**Drew Rogers** (21:37)

there's a lot of surface area to cover. I I I heard what you had said even though it wasn't on the the stream. Kind of this this... The way that we're really framing this is, like, the so what the so what about this industry. You know, we have we have the tech. It's great. It's... And we are getting more and more inspired on the consumer apps. Like, what are the stuff that people can actually... Can use? The telcos, the tech... TechDollars is one that me and Drew both are, like, are, like, raving about.

We're excited for that on on Thursday. But even then, like, what is the next to Venmo? Like, what is that next financial experience for, you know, the kids that, for example, might be 12, you know, 13 years old?

**Nick Van Eck** (22:12)

Yeah. And I think it's only now that, like, you can really build all these things. Right? Because you can go to Agora and build everything out of the box. Right? Or go to some of these other providers, and they can stitch together a number of the things that you have, right, and that you, like, actually need. There's a really good, statistic that, like, I'm trying, you know, to bring up in the last couple of minutes here. But it it frames, like, how... And I think I... Look.

Again, Iris is, like, a great example of, like, how we're just scratching the surface here in terms of the users. Right? You know, until today, it's really been, like, a lot of, like, crypto building for crypto. But if you start to get 1% or 5% of total payment volume around the world on, like, stablecoins, you're gonna 10 x, you know, a 100 x even, like, the value of everything that's happening. And so we actually have a really good statistic that we pulled together.

Last year, global b two b payments is 1.6, and stablecoin share was basically one basis point of that. And so... And that was an eight... And and Stablecoin payments last year grew eight x from 2024, and it's still only one basis point of, like, the global b two b payment volume. It was 226,000,000 last year. It's, like, the estimate. And so it needs to 7,000 x to eat the whole market. Right? Like, which is, you know, from where it is today.

And so it's super early days, and, you know, we are very excited to be, you know, leading the charge just as it gets, you know, legalized and and really brought onshore. And we're proud to, you know, be working with some of the largest enterprises in the world.

**Drew Rogers** (23:45)

I I I have a just kind of not super off topic question, but but relevant. When you think about, like, this neobank era, we had a guest on the other day, and he kinda pushed back on this, like, neobank framing. And I think Drew and I think a lot from the consumer perspective of, like, what do the experiences look like with how you manage money as a consumer and really kind of, like, these purpose built neo banks?

Do you think this is a trend that we're gonna continue to see compound and the experiences are gonna get more and more kinda customized and tailored to that end user, or do you think we're gonna revert and go back to this broader case, kinda like you mentioned, the the HVAC company using Agora, or is there a neobank built for HVAC companies on Agoura? Yeah. Where's the line, and and how do you envision that coming to life? I I think,

**Nick Van Eck** (24:34)

you know, I think some of the takes I see, like, there's gonna be a neobank for, like, everything is, like, I totally disagree with that. I just don't think that's, like, the case. Like, the market needs to be large enough, and there needs to be, like, an acute need. Right? Typically, like, revolves around, like, credit and underwriting, actually. It's like, oh, this is a wonky industry, farming, or like oil and gas.

And so, like, we need a neobank for this because, like, the underwriting around this is, like, a little bit hairy and very different, right, and and nichey. Is there gonna be, like, a neobank for, like, every single, you know, type of profession? Like, I don't think so, especially if, like, the market's not big enough. Right? Or there's not, like, a specific acute need why there needs to be a neobank for it. Right? Because, like, a lot of, like, the primitives of neobanking is, like, very similar. Right? Right?

It's like, okay. Holding a balance, spending credit. You know, I got... Obviously, there's, like, specific workflows maybe that are nice, or the UI could be nice, or... You know? But I I don't... I think neo... You know, stablecoin neobanks as a segment is only gonna continue to grow. But do I believe that there's gonna be a neobank for, like, every single type of company in the world, like, their business? No. I don't I don't believe that.

I do think, though, that, you know, the ability to start spending with stablecoins, you know, through providers like RAIN has been a tremendous unlock. And I think people, you know, really focused on neobanks because it was like an easy... It was, you know, one of the first use cases, easy to grasp. You know, obviously, some of these neobanks were taking off. But, like, you look at this, like, live, you know, insomniac announcement that Rain made last week.

When you think about it, there's actually many businesses that have like latent value or stored value, or your card based value, right, that aren't banking. And that's a huge market. Like someone, don't wanna get, you know, everything away, but just maybe, like, think back on your life and every time that you actually had a stored value card that wasn't necessarily a credit card or a debit card. Right? And, like, that's an opportunity for stablecoins.

And I think there is an opportunity for enhanced loyalty programs. And so we're, you know, excited to work with partners around that.

**Zach Fowler** (26:38)

Yeah. So so cool. My my last question here for you, Nick, was anything throughout the journey of of of building this and seeing the evolution here, Maybe perspectives or opinions that you've had that you've maybe recently evolved or changed as you've seen the business grow or the landscape shift a little bit. Anything that you, like, believed at the outset of the company to be true that along the way you learned was actually not the case? I'm wondering... You seem to be someone that kind of...

That holds the, like, strong opinions held loosely mantra.

**Nick Van Eck** (27:16)

Yeah. I... Yeah. I would say I I mean, one thing where I was totally wrong is I didn't think genius was gonna pass. Like I Did it surprise you that clarity didn't pass? No. Because I didn't think clarity was gonna pass for the same reasons I didn't think genius was gonna pass. Genius is one of the most important pieces of... And thank god Genius passed, just to be very clear. Genius is, like, one of the most important pieces of banking legislation in American history.

And, you know, it's an extremely exciting time to be, you know, I'm I'm sure at the FCC and and operating in this space because of it. Right? That was something that I was totally wrong on. I would say, like, the pace of adoption has been much faster than I thought, which has brought new competition. Right? So, like, Stripe, I think, buying, like, Bridge was certainly, like, not on my bingo card at all, and that totally, know, changed competitive dynamics.

I will say on, like, the product side and, like, the evolution of products, it's kind of been exactly what I expected. You know, this is financial services, and we're not reinventing the wheel. We're just delivering, like, a better settlement technology. And so a lot of, like, the core primitives of finance, like, you know, custody, lending, and all that stuff is gonna continue to exist. I think that's obviously been been true.

I'm sure there's many other things that I was maybe wrong about, and, you know, you should get Drake on, he can tell you tell you all about it.

**Zach Fowler** (28:42)

We would love we would love to have Drake on. We have never never gotten time with him, so that would be fun as a next step. And you guys have, it looks like, some fun stuff planned in the coming weeks to gather some friends together. So... Or is that this Wednesday? That's that's... Is that Oh

**Nick Van Eck** (28:58)

my gosh. Good planning.

**Zach Fowler** (29:00)

There you go. Yeah. Perfect timing. Good go. Well, Nick, thanks for this. And, also, thanks for thanks for supporting the show. We love, as we mentioned, highlighting folks like Iris who are Yeah. You know, doing exactly what we've what we've talked about, which is not crypto building for crypto necessarily, but, like, real companies who are using these these things under the hood because they're just better. So excited to see more of him. Breadth of companies using

**Drew Rogers** (29:27)

a USD. I'm gonna have I'm gonna have you guys... Yeah. I'm gonna have you... Like, so many good companies for you guys, like, you know, next year, it's gonna be I think, well, like, like, it's like... Know this kind of like a a smaller one that's like... We're actually gonna do a stable minded episode with them too. It's like MJ from Sara. Like, company that's not on a lot of people's radars. They made a big splash, and they kinda pulled back.

I know they're they're they're just kind of in that knee deep, heads down builders phase right now, but again, like, just We're also really fun. With Augustus doing a a LATAM focused

**Zach Fowler** (29:58)

segment, if you will, if you wanna call it that, in q four. So I know you guys are doing a lot of great stuff in that part of the world, so it could be fun to work with you guys too on that. Yeah. You guys are gonna get for for for Kunu on. But thanks, guys. Yes. We would love that. Thanks, Nick. Gora. Shout out to them.

**Drew Rogers** (30:15)

Okay. Shout out. Happy.