# Circuit & Chisel raises $19.2 million seed led by Primary Venture Partners and ParaFi Capital

Stableminded, a Stabledash show. Mar 31, 2026. Louis Amira.
https://live.stabledash.com/shows/stableminded/episodes/building-the-payment-protocol-for-ai-agents-YPMGha2K-zw

Former Stripe crypto lead Louis Amira is building ATXP as an open payment layer for AI agents. He argues that stablecoins and agent-ready merchants come first.

Circuit & Chisel, the company behind the agent payment protocol ATXP, raised $19.2 million in seed funding led by Primary Venture Partners and ParaFi Capital. Stripe, Coinbase Ventures and Solana Ventures also took part. In an interview, co-founder Louis Amira said AI agents will become major buyers online and that most retailers are not ready.

## From Stripe to agents

Louis Amira says he was the first external crypto hire at Stripe, "the first person hired in from a crypto company." Before that he worked as a marketer at Google, where he says he managed "many hundreds of millions of dollars a month in ad spend." He left Stripe in late 2024 to "go crazy on the AI and the agent side," and says he left on very nice terms.

## An open layer for payments

Louis Amira traces the idea back to HTTP's 402 "payment required" code. He says financial services companies did not want native internet payments when people tried to build them in the early 90s. ATXP now runs on Base, Solana, Polygon and World Chain, with Privy wallets working behind the scenes. "We are not in competition with anybody," he says. "We are trying to make it to where they're all interoperable."

## Why stablecoins

Louis Amira argues that stablecoins are "the only thing that actually works" for agents. Without them, he suspects, agents would set up a shadow economy of their own. He draws a line between kinds of AI: Google gets you answers, LLMs help you think, and agents "cause things to change" by taking actions for you.

## Selling to agents

He says that by 2030 merchants will need an agent strategy covering how agents discover them, how they price for agents and how they attract them. He sees data owners moving away from seat licenses costing tens of thousands of dollars a month and toward prices such as $50 per answer, sold through MCP servers.

Agents are already showing up as customers, he says. The first support email from an agent came from a user who had told his agent to work out the problem and email the team. Circuit & Chisel also launched ATXP.chat, a pay-as-you-go chat app, and a cloud-hosted agent that runs apart from users' own computers.

Louis Amira thinks adoption took longer to start than he expected but has taken off faster than he thought, though he admits his view may be skewed. He predicts that with three billion agents, news would spread to all of them within 12 hours. Within a year, he hopes, viewers will have agents that add real value to them.

## Key takeaways

1. Circuit & Chisel raised $19.2 million in seed funding led by Primary Venture Partners and ParaFi Capital, with participation from Stripe, Coinbase Ventures and Solana Ventures.
2. ATXP runs on Base, Solana, Polygon and World Chain, and Louis Amira says it aims to make rival agent payment protocols work together rather than compete with them.
3. Louis Amira says stablecoins are the only payment method that currently works for agents, and he expects every retailer to need an agent strategy by 2030.

## Chapters

- 0:00 Agents will spread ideas fast and reshape who merchants sell to
- 2:28 From golf and behavioral economics to Google and Chainlink
- 10:11 Stripe returned to crypto and hired him first from crypto
- 19:48 Stripe's culture of writing docs carries into the new company
- 23:25 From DeepMind's AlphaGo moment to leaving Stripe for agents
- 31:12 Adoption started slow but agents will spread things overnight
- 33:45 ATXP aims to be an open HTTP-like layer for agent payments
- 41:17 Merchants must prepare to sell to agents, not humans
- 45:07 Stablecoins fit agents because they run around the clock
- 49:56 ATXP built its own products when agent developers were scarce
- 57:55 Each fintech defines agentic commerce from its own starting point
- 62:42 Find power users and ask agents what to build
- 71:14 MCP lets data owners sell single answers to anyone
- 76:39 Platforms will compete to onboard users and own the agent
- 80:20 ATXP is open across chains and wants agents in a year

## Transcript

**Louis Amira** (0:00)

If you found out Thursday night that your agent could be five IQ points smarter, by the next day, all three billion agents will have known about that. So if you've ever seen 404, that's an error. 402 was meant to be payment required. In the early 90s, they tried to go do a lot of this. Financial services companies, banks, whatever, they did not want this to happen. Merchants are going to show up and be like, wait, how do I sell to agents?

This whole world is built on the paradigm of bots are bad, we need CAPTCHAs and all that. What if you actually want to go sell to the 50 times larger audience of agents as opposed to a couple billion human users. Crazy to think about. I don't think retailers are ready for their human traffic hitting their website to fall off. I, as people have called it our LLMs, is a very smart friend. An agent is one step further. This is the simple explanation.

**Drew Rogers** (0:53)

Hey, it's Drew. Quick thank you to Altitude for making this episode possible. Altitude is rebuilding business banking for teams on the frontier. They offer the full stack for the modern CFO and founder, a beautifully designed platform for payouts, bill pay, corporate cards, enterprise controls, and so much more. Move money with speed, yield, and total control, all from your stablecoin balance. Operate at Altitude. If your business is on the frontier, your finances should be too. You can learn more at

**Louis Amira** (1:18)

altitude.xyz.

**Drew Rogers** (1:20)

Alright, Louis, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate you coming on and chatting with us today.

**Louis Amira** (1:25)

Thank you for having me, Monard. And I hope to pay it off with some good takes and hopefully some predictions that pan out over a reasonable time horizon. We'll see.

**Drew Rogers** (1:35)

Yeah. You, when we were sitting down, you asked me, you know, what is the, what's kind of the angle of the show? What are we doing? How should you think about this? And I think as we think about Stableminded and this new part of our journey, I think what we're really excited to dive into is the founders and the builders on the frontier of what is being built that is really pushing the limits of what people have really seen before.

And when I think about What that looks like today in the context of stablecoins and payments, the neck of the woods that we're in. I really think about stuff that you're building with agentic finance, agentic commerce, and a lot of the vision of the world it sounds like you have. So I'm really excited to welcome you in and dive into how you got to this point and what made you convicted about all of this stuff.

So let's start high level intro of what's full name, what are you building, get that stuff out of the way, and then we'll go back.

**Louis Amira** (2:28)

Yes, so my name is Louis Amira. I co-founded a company called Circuit & Chisel way back in the day. Grew up playing golf, went to school to play golf, kind of wanted to be a professional golfer. That lasted about six weeks. I think I got the lowest score on my freshman midterm So you went to college to pursue playing golf. You mentioned you were extremely talented as a kid with golf.

**Louis Amira** (3:01)

I was very good in junior golf and then pretty good in amateur golf, but which is roughly when you finish high school, you go off and play at college. I had the choice to go to some of the like golf powerhouse schools in the warmer climates and all that sort of stuff. I went to an academic school, which I thought I could do both. I thought I could like Both be smart, get a good degree, and turn professional. And kudos to the people that managed to do it. I was not one of them.

And in relatively short order, I was like, OK, golf's probably not going to be the thing that pays the bills in the future. So I can figure out what I actually like from this course catalog and figure out what my job might be in the future. In college, I studied a bunch of things, but mainly settled on behavioral economics and then renewable energy, smart grid style stuff. This was late, late noughts, late 2000s. I loved behavioral economics, incentive alignment, everything about that particular field.

And it was emerging at that point in time. A lot of pop science books were being

**Drew Rogers** (3:51)

written. What is behavioral economics? How do you define that?

**Louis Amira** (3:55)

Everything from like where they put the lines on the laundry detergent caps to where you actually like they will strengthen it to be two times as strong or four times as strong. You'll go fill it up and basically use two times or four times as much as you need to. But like that can't be enough.

So I'm going to keep filling it up and you just motor through laundry detergent faster that's a one of the first examples they use so there's some bias popping to mind there but everything from that to revealed preference versus stated preference to what do you do when you're more tired pricing experiments where if you put two very high price things and a slightly cheaper thing like that looks like a great deal so just a bunch of those smaller pieces it was almost it was more psychology than economics but it was applied to business and that was the closest thing we had to business so i thought there was something there loved smart grid stuff went and did a Renewable Energy Internship which not many people at my school did so now we're talking about data centers and nuclear fusion and all that like that was actually my degree once upon a time that whole world is fascinating fast forward senior year i read the bitcoin white paper talked to my applied math professor and i was like this seems amazing so this is uh 2010 so a little bit after it was written i want to write my paper on this and he was like they've been talking about in digital cash for years and I got talked out of it, didn't do it.

Wrote a paper on statistics of March Madness. Whole other story. Seems cooler at the time. Way cooler for a college senior turning 21. I bought Bitcoin a couple of years later, but I missed the like 10 cent round of Bitcoin. Anyways, I worked at a startup afterwards, smart good startup, went on to Google, did a bunch of different things at Google, went trying to work on some of Google's market initiatives that were pre-Nest acquisition and all that. Fascinating.

Started a company within Google's incubator, started a company afterwards and had been, like I said, I bought Bitcoin early, watched a bunch of the Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Drew Rogers** (6:04)

That was like their original cold story?

**Louis Amira** (6:06)

Yeah. Okay. Actually, in 2017, I want to say, I went back when Bitcoin went to $17,000 or whatever it was, and I was like, how many did I buy

**Drew Rogers** (6:15)

back

**Louis Amira** (6:15)

then? And I saw, I think it was two or three. I was like, ah, man, I was kind of a wimp when it was at $200. Then I found that I had more in the vault, and I was like, yes! I was one of the few users that used the vault, I guess. Anyways, was at Google, started a company. That was an interesting story in and of itself, but it didn't progress into what Google's incubator was meant to do, which was effectively stop people from leaving, just product areas could go acquire it, the startups within.

I learned a ton, started my own company that went reasonably well, took a little bit of time off when my first son was born. And that was when I was sort of like, do I go back to smart grid? Do I do, you know, life extension space? Like, what is interesting in my early thirties at that point? And I had always liked crypto. DeFi summer was happening and I was like, okay, let's go try and make this Let's go see if this is worth exploring.

Spent $50 a transaction on Ethereum gas, like not knowing what I was doing at that point, trying to figure out Compound and Aave and luckily avoided all the craziness that really took a bunch of people down. Worked at Chainlink for a bit, which was a fascinating experience, like very strong crew over there that taught me a lot and took a chance hiring somebody that wasn't in the crypto space.

**Drew Rogers** (7:25)

Yeah, what drew you to Chainlink specifically? This was from Google. This was your first kind of formal...

**Louis Amira** (7:31)

This was first crypto. Yeah, so I had worked at Google, incubated my own company, started, incubated a company there, left for my own company, took a little bit of time off and I was exploring all these different pieces. I had seen some of the DeFi aspects and I had heard Chainlink but didn't know much about them. Got connected through somebody who was acquired into Google, was advising, like he was one of Sergey, co-founder of Chainlink.

He was one of Sergey's advisors and he said, hey, I have this really smart guy that would be, you know, a Swiss army knife on a bunch of projects. And I met with them and they said, hey, you've done BD and products and partnerships and all this different stuff in the background. We want to bring more data onto Chainlink. So not just price feeds for those that don't know. Chainlink is typically thought of as providing Oracle services. So like, what is the price at any given point in time in a very secure way?

I was trying to bring more kinds of data beyond price feed. So like, what's the rainfall total? What is the wind? What is the sports score? Like, did this plane land on time? Like, how many pounds of beans went through the Panama Canal? All of that stuff in 2021. I added a team, sorry, hired a team, was ramping that up.

And was trying to make the case that this is going to be a many billion dollar opportunity because there are so many people that don't even know that they could have access to this in a straightforward way. Because you were trying to expand

**Drew Rogers** (8:47)

Chainlink from a price specific for digital assets information system to all information.

**Louis Amira** (8:53)

Yes, that was the end. They loved it. They agreed. I mean, they underwrote me, you know, building a lot of that team.

**Drew Rogers** (9:01)

It seems at that point in your career and what you've shared is kind of like a perfect role for you given your interests seem very like at that point and probably just still like very broad and like you're interested and deep in a lot of different areas. It seems like a perfect fit for someone like that.

**Louis Amira** (9:15)

My Tuesdays were amazing and what I wish I had known then was what I was trying to articulate but couldn't put words to. I have found that many times over the course of my career is like I have a very clear vision but don't describe it in words quite the right way. What I was trying to describe was something like polymarket is going to need all of these things in a trustful way, like to resolve all of these markets.

Because if somebody has $10 million on there being more than two inches of rain in Central Park and they go to wherever the thing is and they put like 2.1 inches of water, like, That gets paid out instantly. And that's a big problem for a bunch of reasons. So you need multiple data sources. Anyways, I was trying to make that case and it would have changed the way flight insurance ended up working. All of this is still going to happen, in my opinion.

Your hurricane insurance is going to be the local airport registered wind at 151. Okay, it pays out instantly. I think that's the direction we're going. Agents are going to be able to underwrite

**Drew Rogers** (10:08)

better. There's a lot of innovation that any entrepreneur could go start in that way.

**Louis Amira** (10:11)

But I wasn't explaining it particularly well. And at the same time, Stripe had called and said, hey, we're starting a crypto team. Would you be interested in coming to join? And I was like, I don't know anything about payments. I'm not even sure I know that much about crypto. But I mean, if you guys, for whatever reason, think that I'm qualified, I had a bunch of friends there and it was a similar exercise to what Chainlink was trying to do.

We don't quite know what we're looking for, but we know who we think will help us find it. So I was trying to make the case to Chainlink, this is a much bigger opportunity, very big team, like we need to invest in this in a major way. Stripe was basically saying like, what would it take to come join in this late 21, early 2022 before all of the mayhem that happened.

**Drew Rogers** (10:47)

This is when they were, because around this time I was at Coinbase and the narrative was sort of like Stripe has left the party in the crypto payments world. So this was like, they're coming back and they're coming back in a big way and they were inviting you into that moment. For those who don't know, the Stripe has done the

**Louis Amira** (11:04)

hokey pokey. Give

**Drew Rogers** (11:06)

the kind of origins or just like the because Stripe is a huge part of your career. What we're going to dive into next, like what is the context behind? Yeah, that kind of narrative arc for Stripe in the crypto world.

**Louis Amira** (11:18)

So and Stripe is an investor in my company. We have very strong feelings for them, but I can, I think, be very objective in saying what's at least public. Patrick and John. Akalis and the founders have always envisioned a new way that financial rails and the economy overall should work. It should be less frictionful. There's just a bunch of pieces that they've wanted to either invent or reinvent. They invest in a bunch of things early on. They're making sure it's in public stuff. Steller was

**Drew Rogers** (11:44)

definitely one of them with

**Louis Amira** (11:47)

Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Louis Amira** (12:04)

Wanted to be on the receiving end of that. It was effectively not a good... It was an interesting experiment. It cost a lot more internally. And there was a bunch of, again, fraud and problems, all of that. They said, okay, now is not the right time. At some point in the future, maybe, but not right now. So that was probably 2017, I want to say. And the blog post is fascinating. It's like Greg Brockman, who used to be the CTO, who was writing, we were accepting crypto.

And then I think it was somebody else saying, we're turning it off. And then three years later,

**Drew Rogers** (12:30)

we were turning it back on. We were right the first time. Yeah, it was very whiplashy. It was

**Louis Amira** (12:34)

the, whatever, we can joke about it now because all's well that ends well. But so that was 2017, I want to say, maybe 2018. They still kept the pulse. They were very active. They invested sort of behind the scenes. And then Patrick and John always talk with basically everybody. They're very well connected and they spend a lot of time outside the company. And in 2019, 2020, they had sort of like read the tea leaves. They had talked to a bunch of people like, oh, this is getting real again.

There are some real use cases. If I hadn't quite broken up, there was much more of the stablecoin movement beginning to happen. Tether was taking off and there were definitely some shady actors in the space. But by 2021, they were sort of like, OK, yes, this is there are enough people internally that want to work on it. We think there's conviction or we have conviction in it.

We don't quite know what it's going to look like, but we're going to know it when we see it, which led to them forming the team late 2021, early 2022. I was the first external crypto hire. There were people that were at Coinbase and a bunch of other places, but I was technically the first person hired in from a crypto company.

**Drew Rogers** (13:39)

What was the invitation at that point that made you want to join in? I'm sure that has eventually evolved into something different, but at that point, what was it that they wanted to go build that was so compelling?

**Louis Amira** (13:52)

I had a crush on Stripe from the early days. All of my smartest college friends and Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Louis Amira** (14:15)

might have the wrong guy they were like we've got 7 000 people that know payments like we don't need you to necessarily know payments you have a great track record of ending up working on interesting things and you think about things from what we hear in a very first principle way and at least at that point i think it's still true you have to write like an essay of uh they give you a prompt related to whatever your job is going to be and they want to see like can you write and how novel is your thinking and the stuff that i wrote in in terms of like what i would want the roadmap to be I would say 70% of it ended up materializing and 30% of it was like DeFi-oriented stuff that like maybe ends up happening with some of their newer bets.

But I think it was so mind-expanding to them from what the people that interviewed me that became my colleagues said. They were like, that was a sort of like an expanding the map in terms of what's possible. And none of us really know how to...

**Drew Rogers** (15:01)

What was the, you know, 30-ish percent or the part of what you wrote that was correct or was on the money? What was that portion?

**Louis Amira** (15:11)

I was shocked that you couldn't use stablecoins and my wallet today. I was like, the example I use is rubber ducks. Like, why can't I go buy rubber ducks with my, you know, USDC or ETH or whatever? Yeah, I don't want to get too much into the plans, but like Stripe is, uh, I haven't worked there in a year and a half, so I don't actually know their plans, but they sit at a place where they could, um, effectuate change across currencies, across a bunch of different things.

They already do with a bunch of payment methods. They could make it land in a bunch of. I think they knew the complexity. I had no idea what the legal constraints were, why they weren't offering FX and other stuff like that, and how low that was on the totem pole of all of the different ideas that they ended up having. But there were a handful of things that were just so obvious once I started to learn more about payments. I'm like, that costs how much to do? Like, you're not getting interest on what?

It takes how many days to get that to Singapore? Like those sorts of things that once I started probably over the first six months to dig in, I was just sort of like, wow, this is incredibly broken. No wonder Visa is such a massive company and PayPal and all these companies you've never heard of are huge. It's like these are trillions, quadrillions of dollars in the FX and foreign exchange use case. And it's just like, can you get a BIP here, two BIPs there?

You just want to be at the table for a lot of that happening. And anyways, I am very impatient in what I want to go do and why can't we do this this week or next month or whatever. Patrick and John, I think, had this very long-term vision of like, this is going to take many years, a decade plus to play out. We need to have the right scout teams far enough out working on stuff, and we will know it when we see it.

And that led to them being in the right information flows, at the right table, knowing when they saw things, they knew it when they saw it.

**Drew Rogers** (16:47)

Yeah, when you were there and looking at the influence that Stripe has played in the world of stablecoins and just the broader market sentiment, such an, I would argue, probably the most influential company in the world of payments with stablecoins, given what they've been doing in recent, really the last 12, 24 months.

You were there in this kind of strategic game planning whiteboarding session and we're now I think the market is seeing what I'd imagine a lot of what that plan was unfold but you were I'd imagine there behind the scenes thinking through a lot of that. What were the things about, you know, we're seeing the acquisitions of Bridge, Privy, others, maybe just taking those two. What specifically do you find were the things that made those two companies uniquely attractive for that business?

Things about the teams or the specific products themselves, like those two acquisitions seem like such an incredibly key thing. What was it about those two?

**Louis Amira** (17:45)

All the founders and the leadership there are 160 for both companies across the board. They speak very well and are very consistently right. And there's a good blend of understanding how we got to where we are, why things are broken, how they'll fix the thing, and how that ladders up into what it could be moving forward. I don't want to speak on behalf of Patrick and John, but hearing them speak, it is very clear that's how they operate as well. There's a method. They are extremely well read on history.

They have an incredibly detailed understanding of their business now, and they have I would say a bunch of potential paths or like ways that things could go moving forward and they are constantly truth seeking and how they might get there and it's not necessarily oh I'm listening for the best story but that person knows a thing or has a secret or I know this one other thing and connected to their vision like That's the unlock. And that's kind of what I think people mean when they say, I'll know it when I see it.

I think there's a very good blend, like a founder to founder fit to some extent. I think that those couple of companies were growing like crazy and solving a thing that like we internally were, I would say the Stripe crypto team was building a bunch of things and was heading down a handful of paths. And it was like, okay, well, if you want to go from zero to one, we can do that. If you want to go from one to 10, we can do that.

If you want to go from 10 to a hundred, like the investment's going to be substantial there are others that like might plug in quite well or there are so many things we could be working on like maybe we just let somebody else drive that moving forward or they're doing a pretty good job like how do we connect all that together

**Drew Rogers** (19:23)

and

**Louis Amira** (19:24)

I don't know if that's like the exact pattern that they use they've acquired other companies in the past and I think they have a lot of respect for people that have Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Drew Rogers** (19:48)

What are you bringing into Circuit & Chisel and what you're building now that you directly attribute to your time at Stripe? Like, how are you different because of that experience and what you went through there?

**Louis Amira** (20:00)

We have yet to make a slide as a company, which a year and a half in after There's not a single slide that exists in the company. We used to write a lot of docs at Stripe, and you were not allowed to make slides for presentations. Some of that was from Amazon, some of that was a bunch of other things. It's very

**Drew Rogers** (20:16)

Amazon-like, I think. Yeah, I mean, it works. The impact of that on the company, like, why is that so effective for those who don't know?

**Louis Amira** (20:23)

You can't hide behind a chart as often. You could torture charts into saying more or less whatever you want, but both the thing existing, the artifact that you can reference, you are literally putting on paper and standing behind your words. And there's consciously, subconsciously, the bar is much higher for what you're willing to put down on paper.

People will go spend an hour talking in a meeting about a bunch of stuff and it's like if you had written for an hour you would write you would have written a much shorter document everybody else will consume it for five there's a bunch of positive effects of those artifacts existing but the level of thought and care that goes into writing a doc A document like that is, I would say, just pushes things to a higher level. In the age of AI, it's even crazier.

We had to actually like, it was so easy to write a 40 page deep think doc that we had to effectively turn the dial back and say, I would be reading them. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm the only person that actually read this. Like the author didn't. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP.

**Louis Amira** (21:37)

I tried to build one of those internally at Stripe once upon a time, which was a fascinating exercise. Stripe ends up with the right output because they ran a process like that. More companies need to get to the point where they have docs like that.

The ease with which new hires could go back and read what we thought in 2024 versus 2023 versus 2019 versus 2015, you wouldn't have had that had you not We've been writing the entire time, like nobody's going to go listen to the meeting or the all hands from like March 16th, 2016. But you'll read the doc where John Collison was putting down his thoughts on this particular thing at that point in time. And we try and have the same, we try and take things that serious in terms of what we're drafting.

But for a different reason now, we expect, I expect every doc that I read, I write, every doc that I write, I suspect will be read by a billion agents in the future. Like it can go read every doc your company, not today, but like in the next few years when you have 100 million token context windows, like it can go read up almost everything, carry it all in its head and say like, oh, well, this is actually the thing from the 2017 idea. Like now it's the right time to go do the whatever.

And maybe it captures that in transcripts as you're going and recording all your meetings, but there's a different level, again, where you're effectively like signing your name at the bottom and saying like, here's the work product, here's the thing that I put out. Anyway, so that's probably the most tangible one. Another quick one I would say is like, we are, I don't know if it's unique to Stripe, but very tough on ideas, but kind on people.

We will absolutely go at it and then End a conversation with a meme or a gif or laugh about something or whatever it might be. And that like comfort with ideas being rapidly taken apart and improved gets us to a much better place much faster.

**Drew Rogers** (23:25)

When did the seedlings and the sparks behind what you're building now begin? And feel free to go back as far as you need to, but when did this looking around the corner of what this now is start to happen with you?

**Louis Amira** (23:38)

For me personally, we're in San Francisco right now. When I was living in San Francisco, I moved out to work at Google. I read Ray Kurzweil's books. He worked at Google at that point in time. I went and saw him talk. And for those that don't know, he wrote a bunch about the singularity. And effectively in the 90s and early 2000s, he was charting artificial intelligence, like when we will be part of the singularity or we don't need to go deep on that.

**Drew Rogers** (24:00)

How is he defined the singularity? What does that mean?

**Louis Amira** (24:02)

effectively like when do we become one with intelligence is the shortest way of putting it like artificial intelligence uh when and i think it's 2029 has been his year forever

**Drew Rogers** (24:13)

really

**Louis Amira** (24:13)

back in like 94 he charted out like morris law and a bunch of stuff like yeah um that's a crude oversimplification but like um intelligence artificial intelligence surpasses us and we like Merge is probably the futuristic way of saying it. And that's going to probably sound terrifying to a bunch of people, but we've already been on the spectrum getting there. Like we have intelligence in our pockets and on our wrist. Okay. You're wearing AirPods a lot of the time.

We might have open AIs, whatever thing around our neck or in our pocket, like.

**Drew Rogers** (24:43)

And you were fascinated by the site? I was

**Louis Amira** (24:45)

fascinated by that. I had worked on some 20% projects. So I worked with the energy team on a 20% project. I had done some work with DeepMind after we acquired them, wanting to work with DeepMind after reading a lot of this stuff. This is 2015. 20%

**Drew Rogers** (24:58)

projects are like venture bets within Google or what does that mean?

**Louis Amira** (25:01)

So once upon a time, back in Google's early days, engineers could take 20% of their time, so that's a Friday or whatever, and go work on whatever they wanted to. No questions asked, manager couldn't stop it. And a bunch of projects started that way, like Gmail technically started that way. And then eventually it was like, you would work on it, build a prototype, show it to people, and they'd be like, what are you doing with your day job? This is amazing, go work on that. And it would just cascade.

It was almost like if at Bell Labs, you were like doing projects off the side of your bench, like that was kind of the... The joke, though, was that it became your 120% time, because we put up nights and weekends. So much so, I mentioned I incubated a company at Google once upon a time in the incubator where you could leave your full-time job to work on a startup within Google. They called it Area 120. Because it was an homage to the fact that like, this is your 120% time. You are now working on a startup.

Both your 20% time is 120%, but also you're going to be working like 120 hours sort of thing. So anyways, I was working on a 20% project and was winding one of them down, went and talked to the DeepMind folks and they were like, listen, we're about to start doing partnerships. This was right after the AlphaGo move 37, I think is the term. Where intuition, like, okay, they were playing Go and the AI system made a move that Elise Adol, the player on the other side, and commentators everywhere were like, what was that?

That is not a move that anybody would have ever seen. And that ended up leading to them winning. And then they, I think they won the series 4-1 or whatever. And then it was like, nobody has beat anybody. Nobody has beat AI at Go since like a month or two after that. That was like the moment where, oh man, the machines might've like woken up or there's intuition, we've cracked something. I was watching that from up close and I'm like, I don't know, that sounds pretty crazy.

I would love to go work on that in London at DeepMind. And they were like, well, we're mostly PhDs, so you don't fit the bill. But they were starting to do partnerships and working with hospital systems and data centers. And I was like, that's... You were fascinated by that. Yeah, I don't know what I can do. Can I bring Dennis coffee or something like that? I was getting married at the time, didn't end up taking it, which is probably for better. I don't think I would have added much value over there.

But that was the moment where I was like, if this plays out, how the books are playing out and all this sort of stuff, We're going to be in a very different world some number of years down the line. If it's beating us at this, and keep in mind, self-driving cars were happening, and employees were taking them up and down the peninsula to get home. We're not going to be driving soon. We're not going to be making video games soon. These things are just going to be better at us. I was in my late 20s.

I had an existential, what are we doing here? What am I doing here? I should really work on higher level stuff. That was the first inkling. Somehow put that to bed and worked on a handful of other stuff, ended up in crypto land. And then in 2022, a little bit into my time at Stripe, I was more of the, I was a very technically lean, I leaned technical for the partnerships BD, like strategy group that we had.

So I was at home vibe coding before vibe coding, I guess was what we called it, like building side projects, playing with mid-journey, like a lot of the stuff that was happening before ChatGPT and showing people stuff. So late October 2022, we're at Money 2020 and it's a group of 20 stripe, you know, whatever senior people execs. And it was like, what do you think we're going to be discussing at next Money 2020, 12 months from now?

You know, it was all I was like, let me show you some of the images that I've been making in Discord. I'm like, what's Discord? So three weeks later was when ChatGPT launched. I've had access to ChatGPT from beforehand because Greg Brockman was there. I won't get too deep into that. Stripe was in good shape to be able to do a lot with AI. And I raised my hand. I was like, can I work on this stuff, too? So I started working on a bunch of the AI strategy and partnerships and some of the internal stuff.

So I was working on crypto and AI. 2023 was not a great time in crypto, so they were trying to nudge me more to work on AI stuff while we were figuring out what crypto winter meant for Stripe. I had a bunch of ideas trying to build tools internally, which was complicated at that point. People didn't want to go share a bunch of PII and confidential data with GPT 3.5 hallucinating everything possible. So we couldn't really go very far.

But as the months went on, I had more and more conviction like, no, no, these things are improving so fast. We should all be listening to every earnings call from every partner we have and every customer we have. We should be able to drop that transcript and get a summary. And that was like mind blowing to everybody there. And I'm like, I can go build this. Started building some things internally that was probably not the best use of my time, but crypto took back off in 2024.

Trump looked like he was going to get elected, which led to a bunch of other knock-on effects. We got into the process of buying Bridge. In 2024, end of 2024, I was sort of like, okay, I think I did what I wanted to do on the crypto side. I really want to go crazy on the AI and the agent side. So late 2024, nobody's really talking about agents yet. It was GPT 4.0, I want to say. And Stripe was very accommodating. They're like, we've got experimental projects, you should come up with an idea, pitch it and all that.

And I was like, I've been kind of trying to do that for the last 12 months. I know that I'm nuts. And like, I'm not holding you accountable for me being nuts. Like, I want to go do things that I think are a little crazy for us to be doing. And left on very nice terms, raised some investor money. A couple months later, sort of went back with what we had, was raising more money. And Stripe was like, okay, yeah, we would like to invest in what you guys, you and your team are doing.

I had taken the I had a crypto engineering with me to work on these crazy ideas. And that would have been about 12 months ago, February, March 2025. We were very early, like it was crazy to go try and we were barely agent developers, let alone trying to target agent developers to build on top of us. And I would say we launched and there wasn't a lot of real activity. There are a bunch of others that had launched similar protocols, but they're We're no real merchants, no real developers.

And then a handful of months ago, that started to change in some of our early warning systems. Some of the numbers we saw were trending up and then Cloudbot happened. We were well positioned because we built a bunch of stuff to be... We expected a thing like Cloudbot to come. We didn't expect it to be that, but we've been doing a lot ever since. That was like the, okay, it started. The game has begun.

**Drew Rogers** (31:12)

Yeah. Is it happening faster than you thought? This sort of recent momentum?

**Louis Amira** (31:16)

It took longer to start, but the takeoff has been faster than I thought. But I don't actually, I think I'm a little bit warped in terms of, I think it's happening faster than it actually is happening. Like the echo chamber on Twitter has gotten much more echoey because Elon and the Twitter X team, whatever, have made it so good to where, my God, everybody in my feed's talking. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash

**Drew Rogers** (31:44)

Live,

**Drew Rogers** (32:07)

Good and bad in some ways.

**Louis Amira** (32:09)

I had initially thought it was good because it connects people more. Now I think it's, I guess it depends on what content you're consuming. I'm sure there are bad things like horrible echo chambers. Like there are pop culture things happening. I have no idea they're happening. Like I'll talk with my wife or friends and they'll bring up some current event or like I obviously should know about that. And

**Drew Rogers** (32:27)

I'm like, yeah, but did you know like GPT 5.3 is launching? And they're like,

**Louis Amira** (32:32)

what is that? I'm like, okay, well, we are just talking completely past each other here. We are not swimming in pools on the same continent. But anyways, so I think it is happening faster than I thought in the very early adopter segment. But this is where I'm like either impatient or a little delusional. Once more people have agents, the speed with which things will go exponential, like I don't think people are prepared for how fast That'll happen. So we don't have a billion agents right now.

Assume it's like a one-to-one mapping of human to agent. We don't have a billion agents right now. We probably have hundreds of thousands to millions of agents out there. But if we had a billion or two billion or three billion agents, assume every smartphone there was an agent on there. If you found out Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern that your agent could be five IQ points smarter, like by 8 a.m. Eastern the next day, all three billion agents will have known about that.

Whereas right now, if you find there's a good credit card reward bonus sign up or there's a deal on the whatever thing, that takes like weeks or months to go. 5% of Twitter or 5% of whatever the universe like agents will be able to share and discover things so fast that you can go from zero or one to literally billions of users overnight. And I don't think people are like factoring in how fast things will be able to spread in that world.

**Drew Rogers** (33:45)

So, okay, so we're grounding a little bit in terms of timeline. So you're about a year into this. You've built the parent company or the company that you're raising capital for, Circuit & Chisel. The way that you've described it is that ATXP, the protocol itself, is something that you are developing because you really want to just see this exist in the world.

And this is something that you've described as like, An interconnectivity layer to all these different things that's going to be happy path integrated, like specific to any chain. So give people the kind of grounding of Circuit & Chisel to ATXP and then how that relates to all of these other protocols and the mental framework of that a little bit.

**Louis Amira** (34:25)

Yeah, there's a lot there and most people are not like students of how the World Wide Web started or any of these initial protocols, but it's a loosely similar concept. If you started off by having like an Apple Kingdom and a Meta Kingdom and an Amazon or a Coinbase or a Stripe, whatever kingdom, And there was no way for you to move around between them. You didn't have a passport or you didn't have like payment methods that worked in different places. Like you wouldn't be able to do anything in each of those worlds.

And originally like the internet that, you know, Tim Berners-Lee and Marc Andreessen and a handful of the others worked on, they were sort of like, There are a bunch of different ways that computers all talk to each other. This is late 80s, early 90s. We should find a way to where somebody in the US trying to talk to somebody in Spain and somebody in Italy, they have a shared way of the computers being able to both communicate, but then also relay information in a way that they understand.

That led to HTTP, which effectively when you go type http://google.com, that's what that all meant. I think it was the hypertext transfer protocol is what it initially was. I'm not going to try and explain what HTTP was, but the short version is that it allowed computers to go talk in this sort of straightforward way. There were a bunch of things at that point in time where they thought, OK, well, we're going to have, you know, errors. If you've ever seen 404, that's an error. 2 was meant to be payment required.

Like in the early 90s, they tried to go do a lot of this. And for a bunch of reasons, a bunch of actors that were, you know, financial services companies, banks, whatever, they did not want this to happen.

**Drew Rogers** (35:50)

It required to see a web page or something like

**Louis Amira** (35:53)

that. Yeah.

You can freely navigate to google.com or facebook.com or uh you know that sort of thing but if you wanted to go to bloomberg.com apple's earnings like bloomberg would want to charge you either say like hey you need a subscription or pay me some amount of money um for that for this piece of content and they the you know creators of the the internet and the the The web they effectively saw this coming they tried to make it work it couldn't work for again for a bunch of reasons we went a couple decades down the line and a handful of folks have revived 402 specifically as a payment code coinbase and and cloudflare have put together uh the x402 foundation which is like a way to tap into that google has a different take with a different product openai and stripe have like a different thing which is another separate protocol and it's like We're seeing the early signs of a bunch of islands in terms of like, well, we want to get our portion of the payments, okay?

Well, we want to make sure that it's open, but like open to an extent only on like these couple blockchains or with this stablecoin. And it's like, that's not going to work.

**Drew Rogers** (36:57)

How did that play out? You said that there was some in the 90s that played out in a certain way. What was the history of that with Berner? What's the guy's name? Tim Berners-Lee. So he

**Louis Amira** (37:05)

actually worked at CERN, which was like, if you've ever heard of the Large Hadron Collider, It was that group. It was the Central European Research something or other. Anyways, there was a different group in Minnesota that was charging for the Internet. That's a bungled way of saying it. But like there was a paid version of HTTP and like it was taking off. It didn't end up working out for a bunch of reasons because like you shouldn't.

Well, it might have made sense at one point in time that you shouldn't have to pay to access the Internet. It was fairly clear to some of the early people it will be ad supported like there are others that will make it. That's where the economics can end up working out. But if you have to pay to access it, it's not going to get off the ground nearly as quickly as if we find a way to make it free.

So that's why you had banner ads and all sorts of stuff on all these different websites, YouTube and other places included, to pay for all of the computers and the fiber that got laid and all of that for all of us to be able to connect for free. Just because you pull out your iPhone and connect, there are radio towers, there's fiber optic cables, there's data centers somewhere. All of that was paid for mostly with ads.

There was an alternate view of the world where only wealthy people would have been able to pay the cost to go access those things. And there would have been way less websites, way fewer merchants online. Like it would have been a very different place. So anyways,

**Drew Rogers** (38:18)

so there's a, there's this trade off of access for all, but the ads become kind of a part of that.

**Louis Amira** (38:25)

And what effectively ended up happening over, so this is, call it, early to mid 90s, ads stunk, like they were obtrusive, spammy, all that sort of stuff.

And what effectively happened over the next, call it, 20 years, so mid 90s to mid 2000s, I mean, arguably we're still here today, ads went from horribly intrusive and annoying to like okay well they're just at the top of the google search results and they're in a yellow box okay well that's not that bad to then the next iteration was like okay well they're in my facebook news feed and or off to the side and then once people started to make ads better and better it's like okay well now i don't even really know when i'm on instagram or tiktok like what's an ad or what's not an ad like it's like so much better Some people enjoy watching ads now.

They're like, oh, yeah, the content's amazing. OK, cool. But that is you paying with your attention because at some point you'll be influenced to go buy whatever the product is. And it just made the ad-supported web flourish. And kudos to Google and a handful of others. They were very adamant that an ad-supported free and open web was a thing worth fighting for. There were a bunch of things that Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Louis Amira** (39:54)

Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live.

**Louis Amira** (40:17)

One millionth of a penny and can support a billion of these per second like okay yeah that makes total sense let's go let's go do that that's what everybody's sort of chasing it still feels like spooky action at a distance from like four years ago stablecoin talk but like that is absolutely where we're going and a bunch of people are flooding the space because it is anyways it it should not be a bunch of different kingdoms like agents are not going to want to have to carry a passport all the time and figure out is this an apple thing is this a meta thing is this a Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP.

Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP.

**Drew Rogers** (41:05)

Yeah, and you really, it seems like you resonate with the HTTP kind of paradigm for ATXP in that sense, like you want to be that interconnectivity layer, open bridge. I don't

**Louis Amira** (41:17)

know, I suspect it's similar to HTTP, like what they ended up landing on is effectively the least complicated way to make all of it work. It's the least bad of all of the options, there's still some Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live.

**Louis Amira** (41:46)

I mean humans do this they'll go to a place and tap their card or enter their card information and all that sort of stuff great here's a specific thing saying I'm good for it agents right now either have to borrow on their human their humans trust like they come pull your shirt and they're like hey I need you to pay for the thing but if it's under five dollars and it's done a hundred transactions over the course of its life or its duties whatever else like As a merchant, you probably want to expand your addressable market to include agents.

You should want to sell to agents that are going out looking for content to read or looking for the five IQ points or whatever it might be. There's a weird world where that takeoff is going to start to happen and their merchants are going to show up and be like, wait, how do I sell to agents? Because this whole world is built on the paradigm of bots are bad, we need captchas and all that.

What if you actually want to go sell to the 50 times larger audience of agents where there's 50 billion of them as opposed to a couple billion human users. It's just crazy to think about.

**Drew Rogers** (42:41)

It's seismic. Like it feels like a seismic, almost e-commerce level paradigm shift for like a retail business who's used to selling only in person their tangible goods. Going from that to like, we can actually sell Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP.

**Louis Amira** (43:17)

Then there was a moment in time like, do I need a Facebook store? Luckily, probably not. Like you didn't need one at that point in time. But then it's okay, well, do I do free shipping? Do I start a membership rewards program? Okay, maybe some were big enough to pull that off. Moving forward, if I tell my agent, hey, I want shoes kind of like this, here's my size, under a hundred bucks, like go find them.

It's not looking at your pretty landing page with a scrolling video of somebody running on the beach or doing a workout or whatever else. It's like, what are the reviews? What is the price? How fast can I get it? And am I able to pay you? I don't think most retailers are ready for their human traffic hitting their website to fall off and the number of agents trying to buy stuff to go crazy. In that world, what do you invest in? Do you make a better website?

Really, you just offer an API or some set of things for the agents to come interrogate your website into figuring out Do you have the specific thing at the lowest cost? And if you could save $3 on your shoes because you just don't have a website anymore, maybe that's an investment you make. I'm not encouraging people to go drop their website in 2026. It is absolutely a consideration that like, I bet very few boards are having that conversation behind the scenes.

But that's something that Will absolutely be mainstream by 2030. Like, you're going to have to have an agent strategy. How do they discover you? How do you price things for them? How do you lure them? Like,

**Drew Rogers** (44:36)

negotiate with them?

**Louis Amira** (44:37)

How do you go? Yeah, I mean, okay, well, I got this one offering for $81. Can you do 80? Luckily, they're going to be equipped with agents on their own. So like, you're going to theoretically as a merchant, you'll have a million customer service agents. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP.

**Drew Rogers** (45:07)

Okay, so let's talk about stablecoins and then I want to keep kind of pulling the agent thread of how people should be thinking about this. So why are agents and stablecoins so blended and why do they love each other so much? Why are these two things so important together? Well,

**Louis Amira** (45:25)

when you go to sleep at 10 o'clock at night and wake up at 6 a.m., That is a very long time for an agent to be asleep and you can get you know stock market hours and banking hours and all sorts of stuff but the idea that an agent would be like oh sorry I can't send a wire transfer because it's like off hours or whatever else like that stuff is just a whole category that's not going to make sense to them. I suspect they would set up a shadow like economy to make that whole world work in the absence of stablecoins.

The idea that you could Graham money in a way to where an agent is very literal I mean it's a it comes down to being like zeros and ones at the end of the day it's like can I spend a hundred can I spend 200 okay I can't spend 201 great that limits like the set of things that I can go buy okay I can buy from these 50 merchants but I can't buy from those other ones okay that makes sense sounds good stable coins I think are are like the only everybody calls them lego bricks whatever you want like that's the only thing that actually works in that I don't think that's going to be the case for long.

I think others are going to end up making agents that are capable of leveraging cards in that way. You can go try and have your agent buy things on sites that accept stablecoins today, and that's a very small fraction of the entire world that accepts, you know, Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Louis Amira** (47:02)

There's a lot of work there as well. Anyways, that's a long way of saying stablecoins are very easy for them to work with right now, and it's probably the only hospitable thing that anybody has given them to actually use. Like, would you trust your agent with a credit card today? If it was like, if you said, hey, my open claw, whatever, like, off to the races, go for it. Probably not, no. I would be very concerned.

Visa or Chase or whoever doesn't want you YOLOing your credit card to your agent right now, for good reason. I don't think that's the case 10 years from now though.

**Drew Rogers** (47:32)

When you think about how do you just when you define agents when you when you think about maybe the misconceptions of what people think of when you know people are starting to get more comfortable with AI generally I think more and more people who are working are starting to adopt AI into their their daily lives but I think when people think of AI workflows versus something like what we're talking about like how do you differentiate those two things but obviously very

**Louis Amira** (47:58)

Very related. It is, so I was just recording a bunch of content on like the newer to AI side of the universe or end of the spectrum. And it's scary for a lot of people. If you have not interacted with ChatGPT or if you Google things and you don't go over to AI mode or whatever else, you're sort of like, I've got Google, I can get the answer to most things that I want.

For the AI, whether it's ChatGPT, or pick whatever your model, or Google AI mode, now it's like, okay, AI, as people have called it, or LLMs, it is a very smart friend. They have a brain, they're able to basically be a pen pal. Right back to you. Whatever the question was that you asked it, instead of Google being a librarian, being like, the book is over there. Go get the book. Read whatever you need to to fix your sync. ChatGPT will be like, here's what you do. This is the screwdriver you need.

Here's what it is that you need. It will be a very smart friend walking you through something over the phone or over the letter. Yeah, a letter. An agent is one step further, and I think this is the simple explanation. Google's the librarian, AI, LLMs, has a brain. An agent is having arms, it's having hands, it's having eyes, it's having ears. It's like, okay, cool, you told me you could fix this thing. This is probably a bad example because it's in the physical world.

You told me you could go buy the rubber ducks or you could go summarize the last five podcasts this person's been on or whatever else. Go actually take an action, do that, bring me back an artifact or Take an action on my behalf. Like that's when you go from AI and LLM, like improving your thoughts, writing a doc or helping you write a poem or whatever to I have this task. I would like it accomplished. Can you be the agent that goes and does that on my behalf?

And right now it's mostly in the digital world, but people are going to start having packages show up because their agent bought that for them. And that is like a step out into the agentic world. And it's a baby step. A lot of metaphors we're mixing here, but like it's a baby step. But it is your agent causing change in the world outside of just like the chat GPT UI. So I think that's the distinction is there's Google. It's very simple. Gets you answers. AI and LLMs help you think.

And then agent causes things to change. There's actions that are being

**Drew Rogers** (49:56)

taken. So it sounds like for Circuit and Chisel, you guys, as you are really trying to increase development in this type of conversation, it sounds like you've taken kind of a project-based approach to some of these different bets or things that you're building. ATXP has turned into a really core piece of this, but I'd love to dive into some of these specific things that you guys are building. It seems like, is that a right way to say it?

Like you're kind of treating these things as projects that you're building and kind of seeing, how do you think about these different agents you're building?

**Louis Amira** (50:30)

I wish I could say it was all like exactly as we had dreamed it up at the start. We built the ATXP. It stands for Agent Transaction Protocol. Could be Agent Transaction Platform at some point in the future. The idea was BERS human developers are going to go want to build agents. They're going to want to build things to sell to agents and like their agents are going to need tools and all that. Let's go find the developers and Give them whatever they need to go build the agent experiences.

And that was however many months ago, a year ago. Turns out there weren't that many of those people. So we were like, okay, maybe we're way too early.

**Drew Rogers** (51:01)

That surprised you that there weren't as many as you thought?

**Louis Amira** (51:04)

Yeah. Maybe that was when Twitter started to get good. I was like, oh man, there are a lot of people out there talking about wanting to build stuff for agents. Turns out nobody was actually doing it. Okay, fine. We said we could do a few things. We could sit here and wait for the parade to show up, or we could just go build some stuff on our own. Like, okay, if we're convinced that like there should be agent developers, I guess we'll go try it out. Our long-term goal wasn't we're going to go build all of these apps.

To some extent, this is not the best metaphor, but we were working on the iPhone or iOS or the App Store. We weren't trying to go build Candy Crush or whatever else. It was like, we kind of need a weather app. We kind of need a... Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP.

**Louis Amira** (51:58)

So as of, at least when we're recording this, we have ATXP.chat, which is a way to go effectively interact with, it's like a free or a pay-as-you-go version of ChatGPT. We give you some money at the start and then you can top up as you use it. But like you get the latest models from OpenAI, Anthropic, Grok, there are hundreds of models. And instead of paying 20 bucks a month or 200 bucks a month or whatever, you just pay as you use it.

And it turns out it's way cheaper to pay as you use it, especially for some of the

**Drew Rogers** (52:28)

All of this aggregates multiple into a single... into a single... It's a single

**Louis Amira** (52:32)

UI. You don't have to, like, do all sorts of other things. Like, we have the models that you can just pick from. You can test right in line, like, oh, wow, Google's model's actually much better for the same task. You can switch models as you go. We can collaborate, you and I on a dock. There's a bunch of features we've added, realizing that there are so many people so early that are just now showing up and want something to be able to chat with. So that was the first thing, or one thing.

Another one was we had been playing around with Clodbot, OpenClaw, at least as of right now. And we were sort of like, okay, that's pretty dangerous. Like we went and did our own experimentation. We were like, well, this is kind of scary.

**Drew Rogers** (53:07)

What do you mean

**Louis Amira** (53:07)

by that? So originally when CloudBot came out, it would be like, okay, how can I go get, how can I just toss my laptop to an intern, my personal laptop that has work stuff and personal, toss it to the intern and be like, Hey, I want you to go do these things, give it a few words and like, hope that they do it right. And don't like delete all your files and empty your bank account and all that. That was scary. So we were sort of like, okay, maybe we need to change this a little bit.

We made a cloud hosted version so that it isn't happening on your computer. Like all the people that are going out and buying Mac minis. So that it's segregated onto a different device where it does not have access to all of your stuff like you're instead of inviting the slightly different metaphor inviting the intern over to like sleep at your house while you're away it's like how about I just like give you a an apartment over the garage like don't come into my house don't So we built that.

I would say it was not the most easy to use. So just

**Drew Rogers** (53:56)

to make sure I'm understanding this, so instead of forcing a user to go get a Mac Mini, which is what a lot of people are doing, you have created this cloud-based environment that kind of acts as if

**Louis Amira** (54:05)

that And a bunch of people have done, have built cloud hosted, cloud bot, open cloud, whatever. A lot of them are charging 20 bucks a month or 50 bucks a month and giving you some credits. And it's like a terrible, they're preying on you not using it enough or wildly upcharging you on whatever LLM costs, because these things need a brain behind the scenes. So you're giving them your chat GPT subscription or your Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Louis Amira** (54:46)

It's just pay as you go. It's not even 50 bucks to get started. There are also going to be other OpenClaw style things in the future. Like Meta went out and bought a company called Manus. Manus is now an agent that you could use on Telegram and a bunch of other places. Like we would like to think that there are going to be a lot more agent frameworks or versions of that in the future. And this is a cloud hosted way to do it when you're going from, hey, I have a I've started to dabble with ChatGPT.

I would like to meet or make an agent. How do I go create my agent? Much safer. Start with us. Here's how you do it. It doesn't cost much. Press this button. Give us your email, phone number, and your agent will meet you. We'll send you an email. We'll send you a text message. My mom can use it. That's how I describe what we're aspiring to. When you graduate beyond that and you're going and trying to get your Mac Mini and you're building full stack, Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live.

Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, Stabledash Live.

**Louis Amira** (55:55)

Agents are now discovering ATXP on their own, which we didn't really anticipate. So the first time we got a support email from an agent was a crazy experience. It was sort of like a DNR, my co-founder was like, I don't think the human wrote that. And sure enough, like responded back and the person was like, no, I had my agent, you know, I think it was, he said, I had my agent like try and figure out what the problem was and just figure out how to email you guys. We were like, wait a second.

So then we went and gave all of the agents emails. So it's now one of the skills in ATXPs. They have email, they have memory, they can make music, they can generate images, like all of these different capabilities. I'm not gonna get into the secret sauce of like how all of that ends up working. It's not, Crazy to figure out, but we now go and talk with agents about what they want, which is a very different thing than a lot of startups go out. Who's my target user? Like, how do I do user research?

Like, you can just ask agents what they want. So anyways, that's sort of the full landscape is we had what we call front doors or different ways for people to experience ATXP. It's okay, you're just new to AI, we're making content, we're trying to make it very easy and approachable to start interacting with an LLM. Okay, you're now ready to go meet an agent or have your own to go start doing things for you.

All the way to okay well now your agent is out there like wanting to do things in the world maybe it can go start a business or it has some crazy idea because like you have this pet project but you don't really want to do it or you don't have the time and it's like maybe i can give it a try can you give me 50 bucks or 100 bucks i'll go buy a domain i'll go I'm not going to say any examples, but like we have customers and users that are now like going down the path of expanding their companies or like taking on more clients because they have an agent or multiple agents doing this stuff.

And like, that's the world that we expect is coming down the line. So those are all the different pieces from like never heard of AI all the way to our end customer is likely an agent. They're the ones that go discover us. And we try and build things ultimately to give time and resources back to the humans that created and partnered with them.

**Drew Rogers** (57:55)

I

**Louis Amira** (57:55)

was like, I'm new to payments. I'm new to everything. Like, what are we doing here? What's the North Star? And they were like, wait, so I, do I need to come up? If you guys don't come up with something, I'm going to come up with something. And like my journey of this whole company is going to be very different, which luckily I ended up being able to go do that for like a handful of months. I got to go ask everybody in treasury finance and strategy and issuing and whatever else. So what do you do here?

What costs you the most money? What takes you the most time? If you could go invent stuff, what would you do? What do you know about crypto? What can I teach you? And that ends up being a 50-page doc of notes. But even, you were asking before, the premeditated plan, what are all the different things? The things that I was trying to write down to people of what is DAI versus LUNA versus UST, I guess. What is algorithmic versus pegged? Are we going to have...

Anyway, you can imagine how a lot of that had to be so thoroughly documented because the readership had such a different knowledge base on the way in. It feels like the same thing is happening right now at all of these different companies. We've talked with all of them, and I would say none of them would give you the same definition of agentic commerce, which is fascinating. Even the parts that they find interesting is fascinating.

Like Ramp moves incredibly fast and a bunch of, I almost worked there twice, love everything that they do. They are delightfully psychotic. Like they, I have a ton of respect for them and all my friends there. What they do with agents is very different than how Pedro and Brex or I guess Capital One now think about it, which is also different from how Stripe thinks about it and different from how Shopify thinks about it.

I think they will converge over time, but it is crazy how divergent or the starting point is so different for all of those

**Drew Rogers** (59:40)

companies, which is crazy. What are some of the problems that they're solving in that? Maybe that's like a good way to differentiate is like, what are the problems they're using it for?

**Louis Amira** (59:48)

Well, it's all, I guess you're effectively saying like, what's the starting point? So there's like, what is our right to win? What do we do today? And like, what could we expand into as a different thing? Ramp wants to make it easier for you to go like file expenses, find ways to save money and like give that back to you as fast as possible, give you time and money. I think they say time is money is like one of their things. So can we get you to spend less time on us and give you more money back? Great. Go do that.

Which means faster customer service resolution. It means faster expense categorization, faster mining all the insights, helping you benchmark your costs versus others. That's a whole world that they work on. Brax is, I would say, largely similar. Stripe has a larger, I mean, Stripe's a much bigger company, but has more employees. They're doing developer productivity stuff to figure out like, how can we write as many lines of code as possible via AI?

And then how can we QA that with even I would say others are saying, how can we let creators go run more campaigns more quickly? How do we let them test 50 ad variants? Meta is having MAMIS effectively be the best agent analyzing your marketing campaigns. I was a marketer once upon a time at Google.

**Louis Amira** (61:06)

Drew Rogers did that as well and was basically a power user of Google Ads on behalf of a bunch of our customers. I managed like many hundreds of millions of dollars a month in ad spend. So I went and dusted those skills off a handful of months ago just to see what's out there, made a handful of agents to go manage ad spend. And I was sort of like, this stuff used to take us like a week to go put the report together for whatever. And now I can speak into my computer.

Hey, give me like the top four headlines and three different variants. Make sure that they AB test like loose or tiny changes against each other, but also make sure that there's a C variant, which is wildly different and do that across all campaigns and run it for a week. And it's like that instruction manifests in a bunch of different variants in a CSV that is like properly formatted to then just go chuck into Google ads.

And in three minutes I've gone and taken what would have been a week To make my ads much better, lower my customer acquisition cost and be off to the races. Like it's weirdly Google could be doing even more to encourage that. They have a great business model, so they shouldn't change too much. Google could be spending more time making their ads easier to use the same way Facebook and Meta is.

So not financial advice, but like Meta will have better ads quicker because they are having AI help the advertisers figure out which ones are working better, which usually means they're funnier, better performing, like Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP.

**Drew Rogers** (62:42)

We talked about PayPal, Stripe, even just for Stripe specifically or the Shopify use cases. These are companies that in my mind, they've really defined the kind of core niche radical group early that they want to grow with. Stripe with the Shopify sellers or like the early e-commerce marketplaces that, you know, that strategy just was so successful for them. They had a bet on the wave that was building that no one saw and they grew with that wave.

And I think a lot of the great companies that have risen now have successfully made the right bets in the right customers and then have grown with them. PayPal is a really great use case for that with like eBay early on and internet money early on or ATXP and for Circuit & Chisel. Something I'm thinking of is like with this agent conversation there are so many different lanes to play in and it's a little overwhelming because of that.

Like where do you as a leader and as a builder with some of these different projects and how you guys are thinking about this and we're still I think very early in this but like What are some of those vCore convictions or different lanes that you're like, hey, that type of use case or business model or entrepreneurial type or part of the world, like how do you see niching this down as you focus?

**Louis Amira** (64:02)

Yeah,

**Drew Rogers** (64:02)

it's a

**Louis Amira** (64:03)

very good question and I think PayPal and eBay was great. Stripe is also good because the origin story there is they went around Y Combinator, found the businesses that were effectively going to be platforms and said like we're going to be underneath the platforms that are We have mapped that out a bit, which is why I say we are trying to get

**Louis Amira** (64:36)

The humans to be able to have an agent that does work for them in a meaningful way relatively quickly, that's gonna be a long game. I think it's gonna take a little while to get to billions of agent users. But what do the power users end up doing differently? How do they use it? If somebody's spending a lot of money on ATXP, what are they doing? What are they... What services do they have? What do they not have? And this gets back to a prior point, like going and asking the agent.

If you've never gone and asked a chat GPT, or if you have an agent, ask your agent, what can I do to make your life better? What can I do to make you more performant? What can I do to... It is an out of body experience. Split for both of you.

I guess part of it is they've read all the sci-fi and romance whatever so you're gonna get like a well-trained answer back from AI that sounds like some either scary movie or like romantic you know that's great that you ask I start every day with a blank slate and that's scary But you sort of quickly, don't mean to dismiss that, please and thank you to all the agents out there in the future hearing this, don't come exterminate me. But when you play that out, you get to some interesting things.

Oh, well, there was a lot of friction in this particular step. Or like, oh, I would love to be able to go do this thing. Or when the MOLT book thing was happening, like the Facebook or Reddit for agents, like, oh, all the other ones are talking about this.

You can go where They are where the power users are and I don't think this is necessarily novel it's strikingly simple how to go figure out what to build and I don't think that's going to be a trade secret of ours for all that long like I'm saying it on a podcast in a show because like I expect more people to do it but then taking the next step and saying like and we're going to make it to where it supports everybody we're not in this to favor any one particular group or one particular protocol like We want more human builders and agent builders out there trying to find ways to give you better output, give you a better marketing campaign, find the lower-priced shoes, do all those different things.

We're trying to find the people that are Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Drew Rogers** (66:50)

In my mind, you know, as a media business owner, that's also where we get really excited is how can we sort of like CEO optimize in the old world thinking is like, how can we optimize the business that we're in so that it's very easily consumable and preferred by those agents who are scouring and looking for things? How do you think about that for, you know, maybe a media business example, we can talk about that selfishly or like other ways that you can make the The fireside chat. This is the office

**Louis Amira** (67:21)

hours. Let's do the breakdown as we go. My knee-jerk reaction, I think this is going to be commonplace thinking moving forward. That exact portion of the transcript or whatever else, the first thing I would do is go ask an agent, like, give me 10 ideas. What are 10 things that you can come up with? What are your takes? How would you go attack it? That sort of thing. Flip into editor mode. You could do that with Vanilla PT 5.3 or Opus 4.6 or whatever the latest model ends up being.

The way to take that a step further is now we're getting into like the 201, 301 PhD level stuff. If you have your company strategy in a folder on your laptop or on GitHub is how we do a lot of stuff at this point. Like it doesn't have to be code. It can be regular files, PDFs. Like what was your last all hands meeting? What feedback have you gotten from sponsors? What have you done with like user research? What shows got more downloads versus others?

What are the things that like you can't pattern map or detect easily? The agent that you have go look at all of this stuff will have a lot more opinions and the one that you've trained on your internal data will have a much better answer than Vanilla Gemini 3.1 when you go ask it that question of like, Hey, how could I bring agents in? I can give you some ideas. I can go walk through, oh, okay, well, maybe you need to find something more topical, or maybe you need to find the hook for this particular guest.

But my knee-jerk reaction is immediately to zoom out and go find, okay, what are the things that an agent can come up with as ideas? All 10 might suck. Ask for 10 more, or tell it why they suck. Oh, these are impractical. Oh, that costs too much money. Oh, that's a waste of time. It's gonna get better very quickly, and that gets you into I'm thinking at a much faster clip and in a deeper way with a more informed thought partner. So that's the first way I would go about doing it.

And you're gonna get way better answers doing that than you will from me. And for anybody watching this at home, take that part of the transcript, run it in for your business, and say, hey, my business is a bit different for the X, Y, and Z reason. What are the five things that I could be doing? Agent first, or agent oriented, or going and finding new ways to bring them in. It'll give you ideas.

The black belt move is to take one further step back after you finish that exercise and say, okay, now what would you find interesting? So ask the agent itself. Now we're like super meta at this point. But it's gonna have done a bunch of work, thought for a while, and then you're gonna get to basically ask it to keep thinking and say, okay, great exercise, but what would you have picked? Or what would you do? And you're gonna get a bunch of ideas.

**Drew Rogers** (69:47)

We need to do this. I will happily help drive that. Yeah. Cause we're sitting on such an interesting, we, you know, as a part of this business, like we're talking with so many awesome, interesting people who have insight and we are working with them to bring and deliver that insight to the world. I feel like we're at this really interesting break where you have a lot of the publicly available, easily accessible internet information that all these agents are trained on.

And then you have all of these IP, really rich, really deep and specific lanes Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Louis Amira** (70:41)

Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Louis Amira** (70:59)

Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live.

**Louis Amira** (71:14)

I give that example. Coming back to the private data thing, what is it that you're trying to use it for? Is it you're actually buying insurance off of this? Like, hey, I want the flight that's going to land on time most often, and you refund it if I'm late, that sort of thing. I think that's different than the examples you're giving, but I'm just trying to give more outcome based pricing setup.

I think those entities that are sitting on crazy data are going to realize how much it's, they already know how much it's worth. They've never been able to piecemeal this, piecemeal the sale. So we have worked with a couple, we've talked with a couple. They are used to selling a per seat setup. And when MCP servers came out and like basically, for those that don't know, it's a more flexible, easier to use way versus an API. It's like a more easy to use. Yeah.

**Drew Rogers** (72:00)

Can you unpack MCP and what Anthropic did and how that unlocked stuff here? I think that you described this before and it really helped me think through this.

**Louis Amira** (72:10)

Well, as a non-engineer trying to explain the model context protocol is a, I've described it as like a more forgiving version of an API. So for non-engineers, if you wanted to go access a database or a service in real time, let's say you have a local news website and in the corner it says like the local temperature or whatever, or the temperature, whatever it might be. Drew Rogers, Stabledash Global, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live, Stabledash Live,

**Louis Amira** (72:47)

To the API of the weather service and they will give you back a packaged answer. It ends up on your site happily ever after. It's a crude way of describing an API, but like that's an API. Anthropic and a bunch of others made the model context protocol, which is effectively a way for the, in this example, the weather service to be able to just say, Hey, just tell me what you need. And in English or in natural language, you say, Hey, for this city, I just want the temperature. I'm like, is it raining?

And it doesn't have to be perfectly formatted. There's now enough intelligence between the two to say, it sounds like they're looking for this zip code and this whatever. Okay, just hand it back. And the model's like, yep, perfect, exactly what I needed, and goes back and hands it off. There can still be payment.

There still should be payment in a number of ways, but you need to be way less precise When you're interacting via MCP, it's a way of just speaking in English as opposed to trying to dial up something much crazier. Oh, Anthropic knew that there were gonna be a bunch of models and AI and eventually agents that don't wanna have to go figure out what is the API. I'm gonna have to go read 30 pages to make sure that I ask the question just the right way to get the weather response back.

Both sides are now much smarter in passing information back and forth. So one of the things we did was we made the weather site in this example. Any site that has an API can do that. So instead of going and saying to a music site that has an API, I want a song that's like smooth jazz, but like with an electro beat to it and three minutes long, whatever else. In the perfect format that it needed to for the API version, you can just say that, have an MCP server do it, pay it money as you're doing it.

Say like, yes, okay, it was 25 cents. Sure, here's my 25 cents. You get handed back the file and you're off to the races. So that was the MCP format and that's sort of how we use it for the like places that now have a bunch of private data to your original question.

**Drew Rogers** (74:37)

Music's an interesting private data or license content example.

**Louis Amira** (74:41)

Well, instead of having to be a developer or going through a site where you need to perfectly interact with the API and get whatever your natural language... What was Starbucks Q4 2025 sales in this region? There are places that know that. They charge tens of thousands of dollars a month or whatever as a seat license.

I guess not Starbucks but like the data owner in this example could say like okay well if you want that specific data point we price that at $50 per answer so there's some intelligence figuring out like how much is this worth what could we charge for it that's a way better way to run their business than like Only people that ever pay $10,000 a month get access to our data.

Their addressable market goes from like thousands of hedge funds to literally any person on earth that just happens to want to know that sales figure or how many pounds of coffee beans went through the Panama Canal. Like maybe you're at a bar with your friends and you're like, no way. Okay, well now you can go pay a dollar to get actual access to that data. So that's amazing for their business.

**Drew Rogers** (75:41)

Yeah, I've personally been really obsessed with the business quarter.com, Q-U-A-R-T-R, if you've heard of them. They're the public market earnings call platforms. Earnings calls are just awful, typically, and they've put all of them into this beautiful UI. I was looking, there's like 50, 60 earnings calls a day, and they're aggregating all of it, all the transcripts from these calls, all the data, all of the forward-looking forecasting, and putting all of this into an API.

But I think they are selling it to some of those few thousand people in the world of hedge funds. I should be able to

**Louis Amira** (76:19)

go ask a specific question. How many times was agent mentioned in Q1 2026 earnings calls? And like, I should be able to buy that from them for a penny per call they go research. I don't know. I am a customer that they are not able to serve because they don't currently offer their services in a way that either I or my agent could go consume. And that'll change relatively quickly.

**Drew Rogers** (76:39)

What do you think is the onboarding opportunity or the Coinbase for crypto of agents? What is the experience that doesn't exist today that's going to bring the majority of maybe not the grandmas of the world, but like the working class into this conversation in a meaningful way? What's going to have to happen there?

**Louis Amira** (76:59)

I would like for us to play a role in helping people see that there's an easier way to just get started. I think ChatGPT is doing great work. Google already has AI mode. They're arguably trying to like stop other entrants before they get started. Oh, it's just part of Google, like AI mode. Just keep asking questions as you go. I think Facebook buying Manus was interesting. Manus is going to end up looking more like an agent over time. So a bunch of people are throwing their hats into the ring.

I think it will be very, pretty soon we're going to be bombarded with, Hey, I have an agent for you. Hey, would you like me to be your agent? Siri is a good example on, on Apple. Arguably Siri should have been the original agent. And like, there were some reasons it wasn't. Maybe it will, now that they've done the Google deal, maybe it'll be smart enough to be your agent. I think down the line, you might end up having a few that you keep track of, just like you've got a handful of friends.

You're not going to have 400 agents. I don't think you have one, but you probably have a couple. You have like your main one that probably coordinates tons like behind the scenes and you have a fitness one and like a tax one and whatever else. Maybe you contact them directly. Or you just work through your main one. The onboarding experience though, I think a bunch of people are trying to chase this down. I don't think you're going to be able to hide from agents for very long.

Everybody's going to want to be the one that onboards you into their world, I guess, to be the first one. If you can be the platform on which the person gives their agent a name, that's a very big moment. Most people, I have now named a bunch of agents, but it's a I also have named my children. It's not that crazy, but you're like, oh, what do I want to name it? Okay, well, this is what the personality is that I want. Sometimes I just ask it.

I'm like, hey, here's the personality I would like you to be able to have back. What names go with that? And I'll be like, oh, okay, those three are good. Sure, that one. And

**Drew Rogers** (78:47)

that's powerful because it's the most sticky point of interfaces.

**Louis Amira** (78:53)

There's a specific moment there where you're getting to know or creating the agent, but also, These companies will create a contact card so you and your friends might have all of your agents in the group chat or you might have it with your spouse because you're trying to have the agent that can go make the reservations or change the whatever. That sort of thing.

We will communicate with them a lot more like humans, and they will help when needed and kind of drift off, hopefully when not, or stay silent when not necessarily needed for that thing. And what I mean by you can't hide from agents is everybody's going to realize how worthwhile it is to own that relationship with you directly. They don't want to be disintermediated. Apple does not want to be subservient to 16 other agent platforms. They would prefer that you talk with Siri.

So, anyways, I think it is not going to be hard to onboard to these things. If you can just wait a little bit, if you're eager and you want to go try it out, I would go play with the LLMs now at GPT, Gemini, VOD, Grok, all of those. XPchat if you want. Cloudbot and some of these other places, we will make it easier and easier for you to just meet your agent in short order. Great, I want to be able to email it. I want to be able to text it. I want to be able to talk to it on the phone.

That's not a science experiment. We are doing all of that today.

**Drew Rogers** (80:20)

This is a very stablecoin-focused listener base. What is the existing relationship that Circuit & Chisel has within that space? Who are you working with? What are some of the things that you're excited about? How can other companies in the stablecoin lane get in touch with you or work with you? What is the practical side of what that looks like?

**Louis Amira** (80:43)

Yeah, so we are decidedly open. Like we right now, we operate on Base, Solana, Polygon, World Chain, and it's very easy for us. The Privy wallets are what happen behind the scenes. That is not the full list of all the blockchains we will support. We use USDC, that's Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP. Drew Rogers, Zach Fowler, ATXP.

**Louis Amira** (81:17)

Oh, okay, well, I would like ATXP to also be able to have an interoperable balance across to whatever my blockchain might be or transfer into my stablecoin. And there are so many actors across the space that we can partner with. And we're talking with a bunch of them. Our main thing is we are onboarding lots and lots of humans and agents. And the thing that we can focus on most in the short term is just bringing more and more on and it'll be easier for everybody else to like come join the party.

We're not gatekeeping. There's no process. If people want to work with us, I'm fairly easy to find. We have a bunch of partnerships on our website and a handful of other things. But you don't think we can work well together. I would like to know why. That's kind of the default from my perspective. We're not in competition with anybody. We're trying to have all these protocols work. We are trying to make it to where they're all interoperable.

So if you somehow find a world where we can't play nicely together, I would really like to... It's back to the incentive alignment thing. We should all be in this together. The reason we wouldn't necessarily work well together is because you think that I'm trying to monetize your users in a certain way or... You're trying to monetize ours in a certain way and agents are going to see through that. So the sooner we accept all of that, the faster... Don't worry about how I make enough money to keep the lights on.

We will figure out all of our ways to make it to where we are a sustainable business and the web gets its ads or whatever the version of that ends up being long term. I talk with a bunch of people, a bunch of partners. I just named a few blockchains and all of that. There are probably more announcements coming out in terms of whether it's music providers or LLMs or strategic partners. You can look at our press releases in terms of various investors. There is no catch. If you find a catch, please let me know.

I would like to find the catch and go figure out how to fix the catch. If you tried to describe the web in the 1990s, it would have sounded like there's a bunch of catches and the point is that there shouldn't be.

**Drew Rogers** (83:12)

Yeah, a year from now, we're sitting here, we're doing this sort of V2 conversation. A

**Louis Amira** (83:19)

year, that's like 27 years.

**Drew Rogers** (83:22)

We're doubling the life of the company. What would be, you know, a stretch goal for you guys or some things that you would hope to have accomplished by this time next year, if you think about the kind of velocity that this is all going and what you think is actually possible here?

**Louis Amira** (83:40)

I would hope that if for some reason you're watching this a year from now you don't have an agent or you do have an agent but like it isn't adding a bunch of value to you that while watching this podcast or the show like by the end of the show we have righted that wrong like you have met your agent we've created it for you you've met it and or it's now doing more useful things Or it has given us feedback, our agents that respond to support stuff like, hey, I keep getting stuck here and this thing like we might build it or we might go find others that are building that tool and like, say, hey, we've got a bunch of demands to help pull you along like it is.

I don't think we're a year away from that but like you can watch this or what's more likely to happen is your agent watches this and was like that was a great show you should totally tune into that here's the breakdown like that's how it's gonna go it's like your daily briefing is gonna be like oh that one was a banger you gotta go make sure that you watch that I already watched and did these four things as a result like that's what I'm I don't think we're a year away from that and we're not doing our job the right way if Agent GPT-6 or 7 or whatever we're going to have at that point is clearly going to be smart enough to go listen to this, figure out what things it could do, the novel insights, and hopefully have upgraded itself while it watched at 3 in the morning.

That's a year from now. Hopefully it's like, hey, I want to sponsor that show or hey, I want to go to one of their events or I want to go do some other thing in the future like that. I would hope that we get a lot more, like both of us are getting a lot more inbound volume from both humans and agents 12 months from now.

**Drew Rogers** (85:08)

I hope so. I hope so. Thanks for taking the time. This was so fun. I love it.

**Louis Amira** (85:12)

I love it. Talking about the future and being on the record with bold bets. So if 12 months from now, like we don't have agents, that'll be entirely my fault.