Maple Finance on Why DeFi's Next Era Depends on Real-World Yield

We have Joe Flanagan joining us from Maple. We're so excited for this conversation.

Joe, how are doing, man? Good to see you. Great, guys. How are you? Pumped up off of that, that intro. I love I love that.

So The intros continue to be a highlight of the show, so we are gonna keep them around for a while. But, thanks for coming on. Like I said, we've talked about Maple Finance a lot first time on the live show. Like I said, we were we were even just kinda singing your praises a bit that Maple has truly weathered some of these storms and stuck around. So kinda bring us into this moment right now. Like, where one, what do you do at Maple? How would you just define your role, and where's the focus?

You know, we've seen kind of some of these launches with Syrup USDG,

Robinhood Chain, but, you know, if you had to Maple Embed. Really boiled excited for that one just to go into the Embed side. We talked to a lot of neo banks and companies building on the show, and I think from the latest updates that we've seen, yeah, we're just excited to catch up.

Yeah. Correct. Great. Yeah. Yes. I mean, you you you call out some of the journey of people, and we've been around for a long time now. In crypto crypto years. We've we've been seven years since since Sid and I started in in Australia. And and through those ups and downs, we've now grown to be the second largest institutional lender in the space. And so what is Maple today, we are an on chain asset manager, and we're focused on activating capital through lending. Lending is our bread and butter.

It's the background that Sid and I come from, institutional finance, and that is where we are focused in how we're facilitating lending markets and lending opportunities into the broader DeFi and on chain finance space. So you can see there some of the some of the numbers. Today, we manage a loan book of around $2,000,000,000, total assets under management of of 4,500,000,000, and we're the, the second largest lender behind, behind Tether, as it relates to to institutions in the space. Yeah.

Joe, how would you as we frame this a little bit, when I first got to know Maple, I was working at Coinbase. I think you've been working directly with you guys on some stuff. This was, like, 2021, 2022. How how would you how would you compare and contrast how you think about the business today versus maybe that time? Like, what what is what has evolved for you in terms of bringing this business to market and and how you maybe compare it to that time?

Yeah. So so when when Sid and I first started out is that our intention and what we built was a marketplace and a platform for other underwriters to come and run their lending business. And so we were providing the infrastructure to facilitate institutional debt at scale on chain.

And that came from our background in securitization and institutional debt markets, and we wanted to bring high quality assets directly on chain where the loans were being issued directly on chain that would then enable on chain institutional capital markets to be built out at some level of scale.

And what we found in that is that through the FTX crisis and all of the the blowups of twenty twenty two, that there was no real separation created between Maple, the infrastructure, and the underwriters that were operating on top of our platform. And so the big change that we made when post FTX is that we decided to do two major shifts. One is that we brought all the underwriting and that risk management process into our technology and into our internal systems.

And so we were no longer having any independent third parties operating on the platform. Mhmm. And the second is is that we moved to only fully secured or over collateralized lending. And so we were no longer doing any unsecured or any under collateralized lending on the platform, and it would only be fully protected positions that we were facilitating capital towards.

And so those two major shifts saw us go from a billion dollars in deposits at the peak of the last cycle in in 2021, early twenty twenty two, all the way down to $15,000,001.05. So effectively starting the business again and then growing to the numbers that you see again today. And so whilst we had all of the technology that we built from inception and we use that today, it was really a redemption story on the commercial side to start the business from scratch and build it up to where we are today.

Now paint us the picture of where's the business going. Now we've seen the launch of, you know, Syrup USDG. One, I'm I've been in your docs, you know, preparing for this, and I see AI in here. I've seen an MCP server. You're obviously on during our kind of a Gen two Commerce focus. I think you've had a few interviews recently where you kind of start to hint at how AI has been more prevalent in your workflows, clients are engaging with it with an MCP server. So kind of bring us into this next era of Maple now.

Yeah. So as we move from only being, an institutional over collateralized lender into being a full on chain asset manager, the question is is what is an on chain asset manager? What is it in that on chain that differentiates you from any other asset manager within the traditional finance or broader financial system? And for us, that is a combination of two major things and two major technologies.

One is the benefits that smart contracts can provide in facilitating capital flows, the necessary security and protections that can exist around the way that capital flows. And the second is AI. And I think that AI introduces a lot of benefits in the way that you're able to manage risk and optimize yield.

And so those are the two underlying technologies that we're facilitating within what we call Maple HQ internally, which is our risk, hub where we are managing every dollar that is lent, every dollar that is allocated to any yielding strategy across the entire Maple suite of products.

And so that is what you're going to start to see more and more as we move into the future is that Maple will be able to facilitate more products beyond just institutional, crypto backed loans, and that we will be able to facilitate that more autonomously through the technology and that combination of AI and smart contracts within Maple HQ.

How do you imagine this taking shape? Like, if, you know, we we we see this six, twelve months out, what what kind of user experiences or user journeys, maybe even, like, non crypto ones, will be possible? Like like, walk us through an ideal application or user experience. If you can be as, like, specific as possible with, like, a dream brand or app that you would love to work with.

Like, bring bring this home a little bit with what this would enable for an end user or a borrower who might be using one of these applications.

Yeah. And and I can I can zoom out, you know, or go a bit longer in, in perspective here if we think about what the the full OnChain Capital Markets is going to be able to to facilitate? Is that if you if you think about the amount of payments activity that's starting to happen on chain now is that you've now seen last year twice the volume of Visa was processed in stablecoin payments throughout 2025.

And so as more and more payments activity starts to come on chain, that means that I am able to start to underwrite cash flows of businesses. And so, you know, growing up, my father would always tell me there are only three things that matter in any lending or credit transaction. The facility, right, how much money do you wanna borrow? The security, what are you posting that's actually going to sit against that? And then your ability to repay. And so those three things are inherent to any transaction.

People overcomplicate lending pretty significantly. And if you come back to those three basic principles, then you're never going to go wrong. And so by payments coming on chain, what that enables is you're able to start to verify actual cash flows of businesses. And so if we say, let's start with coffee shop a b c here in Miami, and I'm able to see every coffee that's being bought on chain.

All of a sudden, I'm able to underwrite that business much more easily because I have a trustless verifiable source of all of the cash flows of coffee a coffee shop ABC. You then extrapolate that out so a lender is able to underwrite, to coffee shop ABC. Then all of a sudden, me, Maple, I I want to issue an institutional loan. I wanna package up a 10,000 of those coffee shop loans. I know that all of those underlying loans are verified through the payments that happen on chain.

I then know that all of the loan interest payments are happening directly on chain. And all of a sudden, have this cascading effect of highly trusted verifiable payments and cash flows that are enabling you to underwrite at each layer of the credit stack. And that is ultimately what leads to the progress of society and innovation is when capital can flow to its most productive use case. And that's where I really see this, this going.

And Maple sitting at the top of that is the institutional capital provider, Being able to structure those types of facilities that see capital flow through and ripple through an economy, which really leads to capital activating real economic activity and progress.

How much of this underwriting do you see being carried out by agents versus, you somebody know, sitting or is this like a a hybrid model where it's like the augmented underwriter? Because to some degree, I could see it going all the way to GenTic if it's just numbers and rules based and to other degrees, you know, for with the coffee shop example, maybe there's some other scenarios taken to account. You know, how do you see this this coming to fruition, or is it kind of like a phase one, two, three?

I think everything happens in in phases definitely. But I think when you have that inherent trust in the underlying data, being that this is payments on a blockchain and the cash flow is all happening on a blockchain directly, all of a sudden, you're able to let AI agents run on that trusted data source. And so I think a lot of work goes into creating trusted environments for debt transactions to exist.

And if we're to get back to one of the core values of blockchain technology is that a trustless transaction can exist. And trustless doesn't mean that I don't trust you, it's that means that I don't have to trust you. And so that enables me to interact with you without trust being a concern or of being of a being a blocker to anything that happens. And so in traditional finance, we have all of these intermediaries that create trust in order for a transaction to exist. That all of a sudden goes away.

And so agents are able to interact directly with the data that is verified and trustable and therefore perform all of the analytics. So I think that we're actually able to move to a large amount and eventually all of that underwriting process being conducted by agents. And that is the real power of the combination of the two technologies where you can have agents and and and and autonomous systems running on top of smart contracts and verifiable on chain data.

Drew, feel free to cut me off if you have a question, but another one that that popped to mind. Obviously, with with your history, long standing history in the in the crypto DeFi ecosystem, obviously, Ethereum, some of these l twos, you've kinda seen this waves of Ethereum, Solana come up, FTX crash. Now we have Robinhood chain. Now we have Tempo.

How do you look at serving these different ecosystems and especially the difference between something like a Robinhood chain and a Tempo who kinda have these clear paths that they're painting, one being a gen to commerce, the other one, again, leaning more into the consumer side of of whether that's trading or or even feels like kind of this next era of DeFi to actually, like, you know, get yield and embed itself in an app like Robinhood.

How do you kind of filter through all of this, and how do you even think about ecosystems, and and where do you spend your time focusing?

Yeah. So we made a pretty conscious choice early last year where we were we don't wanna go and deploy our smart contracts directly onto a multitude of different chains, and that we want to aggregate capital into one's one hub. And so because then you're able to operate at scale. Right? You see too much across the space, the fragmentation of capital and liquidity. There's pools that segment things. There's in chains that segment things.

And when capital gets that gets that fragmented, it's very difficult to allocate it productively. And so we made a technology choice where we partnered with Chainlink to be able to aggregate cross chain deposits into Ethereum. And so that Ethereum is our hub of where all lending activity and capital allocation activity, goes out, but then our assets are available wherever people want them. And so then we're able to you're able to access Syrup USDG on Robinhood. You're able to access Syrup USDC on Solana.

You're able to access t on you know, Syrup USDT on plasma. And so we can facilitate direct access wherever the capital source is without having that augmentation of liquidity where we're having to run small loan books on different chains and have to facilitate things that way. And so that's the the stance that we've taken.

And given our audience on where we're allocating capital to is very institutionally focused, they are much bigger in operating on Ethereum, and they're they're plugged in and already active on Ethereum much more than any other chain.

Are these assets getting the use the used the same way on each chain, or or is there any differences here? I mean, because I think on the surface, it's easy to look at them and be like, oh, it's it's syrup and it's it's a different stable coin, or if you start to see, like, some different use cases form around each of these?

Yes. So you have you know, the let's let we can kinda break it out into the the way that things are spanning out. Now as you have your your fintech chains, your your Robinhood chain, your I'm sure Revolut will come with something, and you're gonna start to see you know, tempo, you're gonna start to see that each fintech adopts a similar type of of infrastructure setup, right, where they want to have their own their own blockchain, which they can do Alt l one or l two, whatever they decide on.

Then they wanna have their own stablecoin, and so they wanna still be able to maintain and control the stack and then be able to then facilitate blockchain based products to their customers. And so that's one cohort. And then the other is the more DeFi and crypto native. Right? So you have the likes of Solana. And so if you take Robinhood as an example, we are embedded, talking about Maple Embed, embedded into the Robinhood Earn experience.

And so when you go to your Robinhood app and you select you wanna deposit stablecoins into the Earn product, then under the hood, Maple is facilitating that yield. And so in conjunction with Morpho, we've been able to facilitate that infrastructure setup. Maple Morpho provides the the lending infrastructure. Maple provides the yielding asset that then plugs into and facilitates the yield flowing back to Robinhood customers.

Yeah. I really appreciate the this kind of breakdown of the stack here. This was, I I believe, related to your Robinhood announcement. So for for us, what we're trying to do a lot of the time is kind of break down the differences and the pieces of this of this stack. So you have the distribution here, the vault infrastructure. Walk us through a little bit, like, the usual suspects that we see in these go to markets and the the unique roles that they play.

I think we've actually we haven't had anyone from Robinhood on the show, but we've met with all of these different companies uniquely. Maybe just break down again how these fit together and why why these all take unique forms in your mind.

So, you know, so you have Robinhood. They've want launched their their blockchain, and they want to provide access to blockchain based or crypto based products for their customers. Then in order to do that, they launch Robinhood Chain. They launch their own stablecoin, and then start to look at what are the protocols that we can incorporate and integrate with in order to provide different blockchain based products to our customers. And the obvious one to start with is earn on stablecoins.

And so this is where they can provide yield. And Morpho has done a great job in going and facilitating large scale integrations with leading fintechs and CeFi applications around the world. So they've got Coinbase. They've got Robinhood, and I'm sure they'll have, you know, other large ones coming. So they're providing the infrastructure. Then Steakhouse is the curator, and so they are responsible for the risk management of the Morpho infrastructure.

There's a vault where the the USDG from a Robinhood user comes into on Morpho, then Stakeouts is responsible for managing the risk, of that vault. Sets are accepted as collateral. What is the lending LTVs that are allowed? What is the yield going to be? And so they're able to facilitate in that role as curator, the risk management. Then they select Syrup USDG, Syrup USDC, any of our other assets as accepted collateral into that vault.

And so then, you know, in what it enables is that Stakehouse is able to verify where is that yield coming from on Maple. And so they can go to yeah. You'll get blocked on US restricted debt. But they can go to that transparency page and on the blockchain, see all of the underlying loans that are facilitating that yield back up the chain. Now you can argue that there's a lot of intermediaries involved here. You've got Morpho, the infrastructure provider.

You've got Steakhouse, the curator on top of Morpho that then is allocating to get to the underlying yield provider being Maple. Right? And, ultimately, what Maple is doing is we are allocating capital to institutions that are then making interest repayments. And so this is real economic activity. And what we are starting to get away from in the crypto space is yield that comes only from incentives and token rewards and starting to move towards real economic activity that is producing that yield.

And so that's Maple's key role at the bottom of this stack is we are allocating capital to productive use cases that is then enabling the yield to flow back up that chain ultimately to the Robinhood user.

That's beautiful. Thank thank you for I know you weren't, like, prepared to do that, but thank you for you for that. Very well done. Whoever's whoever's,

doing the screen in the background.

That is that is me at the same time. So That true. I I I wanna ask this, though, like, this we've heard this term, like, real yield thrown out in the in the ecosystem for the past few years. What do you think about now when you think of real yield? You know, we've talked with David from, like, a USDAI, yield coming from underwriting these types of loans, and we've we've we've talked to a few other players in the space.

What do you think of what is the most practical use case out maybe outside of, like, over collateralized lending for real yield products?

Yeah. So, you know, if you think about it, the the the crypto world and especially DeFi has been operating on its own little island for a long period of time. And where we've had capital flowing around and there's yield incentives and different things happening, but there has been no connection into the real economy and into the existing financial system.

And that is the interesting thing and the opportunity that the likes of Robinhood and these larger fintech applications provide is that all of a sudden, crypto is able to be plugged into the existing financial system. And that is the opportunity that we have to seize. And if we if we do that through only providing what we've got addicted to, which is incentivized yield through token rewards, then it's unsustainable, and it's going to lead to it fading away and us not making the most of that opportunity.

We have a real opportunity in front of us where the likes Robinhood is integrating directly into DeFi rails and applications. And if we don't provide real sustainable yield to those users, then it's going to lead to some level of blow up or to it just fading away into oblivion. And so that's where Maple is uniquely positioned. Yes. We do over collateralize institutional lending today, but you can start to see that we will broaden into other real economic use cases.

And this will be the likes of asset backed securitization. So this is the where we where Sid and I come from previously in institutional finance is bringing securitization on chain. And so this is fintechs and other lending platforms. You aggregate up all of their loan book, and then you provide an institutional wholesale protected facility to those lenders.

And that is going to be the start of where Maple plugs the capital that we're allocating into outside of the crypto ecosystem and much more into the broader fintech and real economy.

The I just have to ask about this. Now I'm taking I'm taking the mic back now, Zach. So the you mentioned this earlier in the in the segment here, but just the idea of, like and I'm backtracking a little bit. The idea of a reality where more businesses actually natively do business on chain, where, like, cash flows are represented on chain. Our business, you know, as we've as we've you know, because because we're a stablecoin focused media company, we run our whole business.

We use Altitude for for our entire business. Funds in, funds out, and it's been like a very interesting exercise around, you know, being able to the Altitude doesn't offer this right now, but like a Stripe well, has a Stripe Capital type of or a Square Capital type of offering where because processing is happening, they have those insights, they're able to extend loans. I think right now we have like a 6 figure loan if we wanted to just sitting there.

But all of that, if it were on chain, the opportunities for for lending, like, none of that really is is there's no competitive market that as a business owner I'm seeing right now. It's kind of like take the Stripe loan or not. How do you see what's possible? And maybe how do you think about the applications like the Altitudes or all of these other business applications that are starting to get more businesses to bring their cash flows on chain? Like, how far are we away from that reality being pretty common?

I feel like we're still it's pretty rare to see most businesses having the majority of their volume natively in that form, but it seems like such an amazing unlock for a platform like Maple once that reality is there.

Yes. Yeah. So, you know, I used the coffee shop example before, and that's that's getting into a a bit of an idealistic world where every part of the the economy is is operating on blockchain rails and using stablecoins to pay. And so what what I think is more more likely in the earlier stages is that you start to see all lending arrangements happening on chain.

And so you can have your you can have all of your you know, if you take your your podcast as an as an example, you can have, you know, all of the transactions and things that are happening. Some will be on CryptoRail, some won't be. But then when you go to pay interest on your loan and when you go to borrow, all of that activity is happening on chain.

And so if you have that record starting, and so then your track record starts to come on chain of your ability to repay loans, then all of a sudden, there starts to be a verifiable history that you're able to then underwrite. And so I think that this is, you know, powerful in the in The US where, you know, stablecoins are starting to get more adoption, but it starts to create a level playing field globally.

You know, if I'm running a podcast in, in Sub Saharan Africa, you know, I can have the same opportunity as the the guys here. And so because I can borrow against the history that I've built up of starting to process loans and and pay history and that payment history.

And so I think that that's really the you know, I take it to the extreme there, but the creep the ability for crypto to come back to it being a global financial system, and that everyone is able to have access to the same basic financial services as everyone else is something that I wanna ensure that we maintain as as crypto and DeFi comes into the real economy and into the existing financial system.

Yeah. Well, we talked to a lot of neo banks, especially on the b two b side, and and the emerging trend time and time again is credit. That's feels to be the missing piece that that a lot of these, banks want that are are are thinking through how they integrate, but also I imagine their consumers are are are talking about trade finance has been a theme.

And so do you see being a day where where Maple has a has a specific product offering kinda like Drew said, where you can, you know, white label the lending experience and bring it into x y z, neobank, the altitudes of the worlds? Or or you say, hey. We'll let somebody else go build that. We wanna focus on the institutional side or maybe on the Robinhood side. It kinda feels like I could see both sides happening.

How how how do you think about that, especially with with this rise of of neo banking and and more and more people wanting access to credit?

Yeah. And and so you you referenced it before is is Maple m Embed, which is where we are you know, I the the term white labeling, I think, gets abused, but where we're able to provide our our products directly into existing customer bases and into existing capital sources. And so today, that looks like accessing the yield products that Maple provides. You know, integrate, you're able to enable your customer to deposit into a Maple product and therefore receive that yield back.

Then what we wanna do is start to move to, okay, how do we integrate and provide within Maple Bed the borrow experience? And so that you're able to access capital just as much as you're able to allocate capital. And so that will be the next iteration of of Maple in bed.

And as you think about all of the fintechs across all of the different jurisdictions around the world, what they're not going to be able to do is each run their own small lending book as productively and well as they should as, you know, as a large scale lending book. There is a real difference between the amount of resource that you're able to allocate versus a smaller lending book. And so that's what Maple Embed will be able to provide is that we can say, don't worry about running your lending business.

You continue to focus on distribution, getting access to customers, and creating a great customer experience. Behind the scenes, we're gonna run your lending business for you. Mhmm. And we're able to have your customers access yield as well as receive capital or borrow capital and start to create a a holistic ecosystem within each fintech.

That's really, really interesting. So so let's just imagine Altitude wants to do this or any other scaled distributed business focused neo bank on chain. What what part like, what part of this piece would you play here? Are there other, like, going back to the stack that you walked us through before? Are there other key pieces that you would need to bring in? Like, how does this practically what what does this practically look like? Because, one, we would love to, like, help make this happen as well.

Like, I think we're will I know you you probably know everyone as well, but I just we wanna see more of this. It feels like all the pieces are there to to accomplish it. But who else did we need to bring in?

No. I mean, yeah. Our our preference is always to go direct. And so we have, you know, the Maple embed, you can think of it as a technology product. It is an API that enables people and developers to integrate directly into it. And so that is the the the interface that that we're providing is not an application that you go and click in with Maple Embed. It is a technology product that a developer is able to interact with and embed into their product offering.

And so where this is going to start is that it's going to start with crypto back loans. Right? Fintechs are starting to integrate crypto trading across the board, and so they are holding crypto assets on behalf of their users. And so the first easier use case is say, okay. You got your your customers hold Bitcoin. They're going to able to be able to start to borrow against that Bitcoin.

Then as you start to get into further tokenization of assets, people holding equities, and other assets on chain within their fintech experience of choice, then you can start to add more and more lending against those assets before you start to get into the cash flow loans that we're talking about. So it's a Interesting. Process. So cash flow is like a future phase in your mind? Yeah.

Because because with that, right, is that the thing when you have an over collateralized position is within that that that trilemma of lending is that your ability to repay gets reduced. Right? You're not having to underwrite every cash flow because you're heavily reliant on the security that's being posted against the loan.

And so as you start to reduce the security and increase the reliance on the ability to repay, then more underwriting work is required in order to in order to facilitate a a loan that you're that you're happy to continue lending.

Cool. Last question from my side.

Go I wanted to ask you No. No. You you you get the you get this you get second to last. I'll get the last one. Okay. Be because it's inclined,

really, us, this is a part of our show that we're diving into the the age where agents and money really interact and and come together. The loan and the underwriting process and a lot of that is something that historically is super heavy and time consuming and operationally very difficult. What is the kind of punchline in your mind on what is now possible in that process with how where agents fit in in your mind?

Like, where where practically today versus, like, five or ten years from now, do you imagine the agenetic economy coming to life within Maple in the the process of the lending and borrowing side?

Yes. So so today, Maple, we use, you know, agents and and, and AI in order to assess collateral. Right? So we are always monitoring what is the price of Bitcoin. We're able to do simulations of different scenarios. You have an event like yesterday, price goes up. Right? We can we can start understand what's going to happen to the loan book, simulate all of these different scenarios to then be able to underwrite Bitcoin, which is obviously much easier, but then start to underwrite other collateral assets. Right?

We lend against XRP. We lend against hype. These are more volatile assets. You have to understand them in different market conditions. And so that's where we're able to use it really productively today to not only underwrite for the initial credit decision, but then to have the monitoring of markets in real time. Okay. We're starting to see this trend happen in markets. Liquidity is thinning. Okay. We need to add we need to top up more more proactively.

So that's where the use of AI sits with us us today as it relates to credit decisioning. When you extrapolate this out five to ten years, I think that you're going to have more and more of those cash flow based lending, which I think is the most is the highest risk and the most productive form of lending where you're extending actual credit to borrowers, be inherently run and risk managed by agents. And so Maple will be a part of that. But I think you will see this across the space in all types of lending.

It will be that agents are relied upon to verify the information that's being provided, perform that initial credit decisioning, and then to monitor the health of of a loan once it's been issued. And that last one is very powerful. When you can start to predict when something is about to go wrong, then you're prevent losses much more proactively.

And then you're able to lend more aggressively because you have more, reliance on your ability to close out a loan early or enforce a bit before something bad actually happens versus today, everything is reliant on post event realisation. Something bad happens, then you react. What agents will be able to enable is because they're monitoring everything in real time, more proactive decision making to step in when, when loans need to need to be managed.

That's so interesting.

Gonna hold my tongue now. Go ahead, Zach. Let's take let's take the other side of agents. Now I wanna know how do you think about who your user is in five or ten years? Is it still the institutional bar? Is there how are they using agents? How how do the agents interact with your assets and and this and this protocol? I'm even thinking the lines of agentic, you know, AgenTic focused businesses where all of their transactions are happening through x four zero two and MPPP.

So how do you think about that side of the equation with your with your actual users?

Yes. So I think it's highly dependent on the business you know, the type of business on the other side. But if you take the crypto native firms that we're that we're lending against to or lending to today, you're going to see that more and more we're going to be interacting with and interfacing with agents. Right? They're going to be looking at the markets and saying, okay. We see a trading opportunity. We need more capital. Agent has identified that that opportunity.

It then talks to our agent and says, I'm willing to borrow at five and a half percent because I've got this trading opportunity. Give me the capital. Our agent underwrites in real time, sends the capital back to that agent, and then goes and deploys into that trading strategy. So for market activity, this can become very autonomous where it's agents speaking to other agents. When you get into more real world economic use cases, it's going to move a little bit slower.

You know, when you're underwriting a coffee shop, it's gonna be a little bit different. When you're underwriting a large commercial real estate loan, gonna be very different. So there's it's it you know, trading activity is very specific type of type of lending.

And but, you know, in the same way I've described that, you can see how it will proliferate into all forms of lending where you have agents speaking to other agents, the level of autonomy that's given to them for the before a human steps in to approve a approve a cash flow is is gonna be varied based on the the type of lending and the underlying business. But ten years from now, who knows how much will be damaged and moving money around the globe.

Yeah. The opportunity in that in that context, in that in that addressable market in a decade is just absolutely wild. Hopefully, we'll be still following the journey at that point would be would be great. Zach, any any final questions for for Joe as we we close out? We're over. I think Over. Yeah.

We are we went over, Joe. Thanks for coming on today. Couldn't help ourselves. Great to meet you. Couldn't help ourselves. And like I said, thanks for coming on StableDash live.

No worries. Appreciate all the support. Thanks, guys.

Cheers. See you next time.